75 years since the bomb

[Lord Potts]

I hear a lot of Westerners talk like that about the Emperor, but hardly any Japanese. In fact I have never heard a Japanese person use those terms

Japanese troops fought to the death defending Okinawa, but that was their last stand. They had run out of pretty much everything from then on, soldiers, ammunition, fuel.

Some of the Japanese military would have tried some kind of Ueno style last stand, but it would have taken the US hours not days to overcome them.

There was nothing left to mount a defence with.
There were a few crazies but not enough to have caused series opposition to a US invasion

The historian NORIKO KAWAMURA quotes Prime Minister Tojo as always telling his subordinates..

“The Emperor is a sacred being (shinkaku). We subjects regardless of how important we become cannot overcome our existence as human beings (jinkaku). Even the Prime Minister is unimportant in front of the Emperor. He is beyond everything and standing in his noble light we first become to be respected by the people….”

This was the image of the Emperor that was presented to the people by the Military government. After the War with the military gone the Emperor endeavored to change that image by telling the Japanese people..

"The ties between Us and Our people have always stood on mutual trust and affection. They do not depend upon mere (divine) legends and myths.
They are not predicated on the false conception that the Emperor is divine, and that the Japanese people are superior to other races and fated to rule the world.
(from the Imperial rescript, January 1, 1946)

In other words he was saying that what they had constantly been told by the military - that the Emperor was "divine"- was wrong.

So far as the defence of Japan was concerned although depleted of much of its military equipment and with no chance of winning the war Operation Ketsugo was designed to make a US invasion force pay such a high price on the beaches that the Allies would seek an armistice rather than Japans unconditional surrender. Accordingly Japan prepared 10,000 Kamikaze aircraft and hundreds of high speed suicide boats and swimmers to attack any fleet that attempted to land. The Japanese has sufficient arms and ammunition left to supply 30 divisions about 500,000 men who would have the advantage of being the defenders . It was also intend to use another 2.5 million troops plus many thousands of civilians all engaged in guerrilla warfare.

Unlike D Day when the Allies fooled the Germans in to thinking the real invasion would come through Calais any invasion of Japan's main islands had to take place through Kyushu in the south so the Japanese were able to make all the preparations that their limited military supplies allowed . Whether or not you think that even under these circumstances it would have only taken the US a few hours to overwhelm the Japanese defences and occupy Japan the Yanks themselves certainly didn't and they estimated that they would suffer over one million casualties. The prospect of which terrified them

Although the use of atomic weapons was appalling so was the continued systematic firebombing of Japans cities. We also need to remember that the people who took these decisions had just seen inside the Nazi extermination camps they knew how the Japanese treated POWs and what the Japan had done and was still doing to tens of thousands of civilians in Shanghai and the rest of China and more recently in Manilla. They obviously wanted to bring all that to a stop.

Never having been confronted with such horror - a world gone mad - I find it very difficult to judge them.

 

[Deleted User 11453]

Didn't advocate it merely stated we didn't have to invade. They'd have given up or at least been no threat. It doesn't matter now as all history but must not be forgotten.

Fairy nuff, but there were decisions to make and they weren’t taken lightly and would have considered the options. There wasn’t a nice fluffy solution.

 

[dangermows]

Can't ever give a thumbs up to such acts personally. Absolutely brutal.

 

[Football Dinosaur]

Starve them out?
How many lives would that have cost?
Bear in mind that the military ruled Japan at the time. Hirohito was a mere figurehead, there is no way they would have surrendered without dropping the bomb.
The allies would bave had to invade eventually with the inherent friendly casualties that act would have created. The lads who would have had to do the fighting on mainland Japan where in favour of the bombs being dropped!

They would not have given up!

A blockade of the home islands was feasble and would have been simple as no navy of air force to worry about. The Japanese had no raw materials so couldn't rebuild armed forces so once russia declaired war, which they would have sooner or later the game was up. But as I Stated this is water under the T shaped bridge and the merits and drawbacks of the event long gone. The purpose of the thread wasn't to debate weather it was a good idea (genie is out of the bottle now) instead it was just to remember those lost not just on that date but in the atomic age really. Chernobyl and other disasters only happened as a result of the bomb. Testings also killed many forced to witness and damaged the environment. Cancer rates are up and must be a result of nucelar industry/testing over the past 75 or so years.

Fairy nuff, but there were decisions to make and they weren’t taken lightly and would have considered the options. There wasn’t a nice fluffy solution.

Very true. Not a decision I'd want to make easily. I suppose porpaganda had dehumanised the enemy which made it easier. Worse behaviour was Trueman and I believe subsequent US presendents threatening to drop further bombs on nations which don't have it.

 

[mickb2112]

The historian NORIKO KAWAMURA quotes Prime Minister Tojo as always telling his subordinates..

“The Emperor is a sacred being (shinkaku). We subjects regardless of how important we become cannot overcome our existence as human beings (jinkaku). Even the Prime Minister is unimportant in front of the Emperor. He is beyond everything and standing in his noble light we first become to be respected by the people….”

This was the image of the Emperor that was presented to the people by the Military government. After the War with the military gone the Emperor endeavored to change that image by telling the Japanese people..

"The ties between Us and Our people have always stood on mutual trust and affection. They do not depend upon mere (divine) legends and myths.
They are not predicated on the false conception that the Emperor is divine, and that the Japanese people are superior to other races and fated to rule the world.
(from the Imperial rescript, January 1, 1946)

In other words he was saying that what they had constantly been told by the military - that the Emperor was "divine"- was wrong.

So far as the defence of Japan was concerned although depleted of much of its military equipment and with no chance of winning the war Operation Ketsugo was designed to make a US invasion force pay such a high price on the beaches that the Allies would seek an armistice rather than Japans unconditional surrender. Accordingly Japan prepared 10,000 Kamikaze aircraft and hundreds of high speed suicide boats and swimmers to attack any fleet that attempted to land. The Japanese has sufficient arms and ammunition left to supply 30 divisions about 500,000 men who would have the advantage of being the defenders . It was also intend to use another 2.5 million troops plus many thousands of civilians all engaged in guerrilla warfare.

Unlike D Day when the Allies fooled the Germans in to thinking the real invasion would come through Calais any invasion of Japan's main islands had to take place through Kyushu in the south so the Japanese were able to make all the preparations that their limited military supplies allowed . Whether or not you think that even under these circumstances it would have only taken the US a few hours to overwhelm the Japanese defences and occupy Japan the Yanks themselves certainly didn't and they estimated that they would suffer over one million casualties. The prospect of which terrified them

Although the use of atomic weapons was appalling so was the continued systematic firebombing of Japans cities. We also need to remember that the people who took these decisions had just seen inside the Nazi extermination camps they knew how the Japanese treated POWs and what the Japan had done and was still doing to tens of thousands of civilians in Shanghai and the rest of China and more recently in Manilla. They obviously wanted to bring all that to a stop.

Never having been confronted with such horror - a world gone mad - I find it very difficult to judge them.

Not forgetting the notorious Unit 731 medical experiment group who committed unspeakable atrocities.

 

[Lord Potts]

[QUOTE="Football Dinosaur, post: 32142413, member: 31439

Very true. Not a decision I'd want to make easily. I suppose porpaganda had dehumanised the enemy which made it easier. Worse behaviour was Trueman and I believe subsequent US presendents threateing to drop further bombs on nations which don't have it.
[/QUOTE]
Propaganda did play its part but the Japanese didn't do themselves any favours with respect to the terrible atrocities that they committed especially in China. It's estimated that the Japanese military "executed" between 6 to 10 million people in the parts of SE Asia the Pacific and China that they occupied. The bayoneting of wounded British Servicemen as they lay in their hospital beds in Hong Kong and the treatment of allied POWs did not endear them to us.

 

[Lankester Merrin]

The historian NORIKO KAWAMURA quotes Prime Minister Tojo as always telling his subordinates..

“The Emperor is a sacred being (shinkaku). We subjects regardless of how important we become cannot overcome our existence as human beings (jinkaku). Even the Prime Minister is unimportant in front of the Emperor. He is beyond everything and standing in his noble light we first become to be respected by the people….”

This was the image of the Emperor that was presented to the people by the Military government. After the War with the military gone the Emperor endeavored to change that image by telling the Japanese people..

"The ties between Us and Our people have always stood on mutual trust and affection. They do not depend upon mere (divine) legends and myths.
They are not predicated on the false conception that the Emperor is divine, and that the Japanese people are superior to other races and fated to rule the world.
(from the Imperial rescript, January 1, 1946)

In other words he was saying that what they had constantly been told by the military - that the Emperor was "divine"- was wrong.

Just because Tojo told his fellow officers to believe that the Emperor was divine doesn't mean that view was widespread.

The idea of the fanatical Japanese led by their god-Emperor is a western myth with it's origins in military propaganda from the 1940s, some of which, lets be honest, was pretty racist.

So far as the defence of Japan was concerned although depleted of much of its military equipment and with no chance of winning the war Operation Ketsugo was designed to make a US invasion force pay such a high price on the beaches that the Allies would seek an armistice rather than Japans unconditional surrender. Accordingly Japan prepared 10,000 Kamikaze aircraft and hundreds of high speed suicide boats and swimmers to attack any fleet that attempted to land. The Japanese has sufficient arms and ammunition left to supply 30 divisions about 500,000 men who would have the advantage of being the defenders . It was also intend to use another 2.5 million troops plus many thousands of civilians all engaged in guerrilla warfare.

Unlike D Day when the Allies fooled the Germans in to thinking the real invasion would come through Calais any invasion of Japan's main islands had to take place through Kyushu in the south so the Japanese were able to make all the preparations that their limited military supplies allowed . Whether or not you think that even under these circumstances it would have only taken the US a few hours to overwhelm the Japanese defences and occupy Japan the Yanks themselves certainly didn't and they estimated that they would suffer over one million casualties. The prospect of which terrified them

Although the use of atomic weapons was appalling so was the continued systematic firebombing of Japans cities. We also need to remember that the people who took these decisions had just seen inside the Nazi extermination camps they knew how the Japanese treated POWs and what the Japan had done and was still doing to tens of thousands of civilians in Shanghai and the rest of China and more recently in Manilla. They obviously wanted to bring all that to a stop.

Never having been confronted with such horror - a world gone mad - I find it very difficult to judge them.

Japan didn't have 10,000 Kamikaze. It might have had 10. There weren't 500,000 men at all. There were teenagers and OAPs with bamboo spears.

And can we just pause for a moment and ask ourselves -what is a suicide swimmer? What possible military use would they have?

Japan had already fought it's last stand, thousands of miles from Tokyo at Okinawa. There was nothing left.

 

[Scotty]

Just because Tojo told his fellow officers to believe that the Emperor was divine doesn't mean that view was widespread.

The idea of the fanatical Japanese led by their god-Emperor is a western myth with it's origins in military propaganda from the 1940s, some of which, lets be honest, was pretty racist.



Japan didn't have 10,000 Kamikaze. It might have had 10. There weren't 500,000 men at all. There were teenagers and OAPs with bamboo spears.

And can we just pause for a moment and ask ourselves -what is a suicide swimmer? What possible military use would they have?

Japan had already fought it's last stand, thousands of miles from Tokyo at Okinawa. There was nothing left.

Japan had at least 10k aircraft based on the home islands of multiple functions and types, each one had the potential to be a kamikaze

your claim that they might have had 10 is frankly laughable

 

[cosmicchris00]

As an engineer I find the whole fission thing hugely interesting.

However, the thought of it being used against living things makes my blood run cold.

The same could be said for all tools of war and 1939 to 1945 was a particularly grim period in human history.

I suppose it's the scale of the destruction and death wrought by atomic weapons , now by the press of a button or issuing a single instruction.

Press button

Millions now die

Its unfathomable

 

[Scotty]

As an engineer I find the whole fission thing hugely interesting.

However, the thought of it being used against living things makes my blood run cold.

The same could be said for all tools of war and 1939 to 1945 was a particularly grim period in human history.

I suppose it's the scale of the destruction and death wrought by atomic weapons , now by the press of a button or issuing a single instruction.

Press button

Millions now die

Its unfathomable

remember though at the time the Atom bomb was just a bigger bomb in a whole line of bigger bombs

but yes, a very grim period

think about it another way - WW2 generals were only 25 years or so removed from WW1, they had most likely served as junior officers during WW1 and watched their leaders plan offensives that gained 3 miles at a loss of over 50k troops

Planners in 1945 are saying to expect 500k to 1M allied casualties for Downfall

If you have the worlds most destructive bomb - you'd use it

 

[Lord Potts]

Just because Tojo told his fellow officers to believe that the Emperor was divine doesn't mean that view was widespread.

The idea of the fanatical Japanese led by their god-Emperor is a western myth with it's origins in military propaganda from the 1940s, some of which, lets be honest, was pretty racist.



Japan didn't have 10,000 Kamikaze. It might have had 10. There weren't 500,000 men at all. There were teenagers and OAPs with bamboo spears.

And can we just pause for a moment and ask ourselves -what is a suicide swimmer? What possible military use would they have?

Japan had already fought it's last stand, thousands of miles from Tokyo at Okinawa. There was nothing left.

I didn't say The Emperor was "God Like" I said he was regarded as being "divine" and added a quote form an eminent Japanese historian to illustrate the point as well as one from the Japanese royal palace in 1946 which supported my argument. Although I believe the idea of the "divinity" of the Emperor did have a hold among the senior military it was transmitted to and backed up by the extreme brutalisation of the ordinary troops by their own officer corps and from there to the civilian population itself.
You say there was "nothing left" but figures for the available aircraft (and other military equipment) in Japan at the time (and I might add confirmed by the Japanese in their operation plan for the defence of Japan) can be found in the document Final report progress of demobilization of the Japanese Armed Forces, 30 December 1946. which is available here
Final report progress of demobilization of the Japanese Armed Forces, 30 December 1946. :: World War II Operational Documents

I would be genuinely interested in seeing any documented evidence that you might have to support any of your claims because to be honest I found your earlier assertion that a successful US invasion of the Japanese home islands would have only taken a matter of hours to be one one the most ludicrous things that I have heard. IT goes against every experience the US ever had of engaging Japanese troops and the willingness of the Japanese to fight literally to the last man even when they were completely overwhelmed with the last bullet gone and defeat certain.

The "swimmers" by the way were frogmen armed with 15kg mines on a bamboo pole who were part of a 1200 strong (by 1945) specialist attack unit called Fukuryu. Although the effectiveness of such a unit against and invasion fleet is doubtful - a few might have got through - just the threat of the possibility of such attacks taking place would no doubt have been another consideration for the US invasion planners

 

[Lankester Merrin]

Japan had at least 10k aircraft based on the home islands of multiple functions and types, each one had the potential to be a kamikaze

your claim that they might have had 10 is frankly laughable

Im sorry but that is just nonsense. ibhonestly ain’t understand where people get this total gibberish from

http://cgsc.cdmhost.com/cdm/ref/collection/p4013coll8/id/351
I would be genuinely interested in seeing any documented evidence that you might have to support any of your claims

daftie

I wrote my dissertation on WW2 japan and the resource implications of Japanese military mobilisation.

i read and speak Japanese and I’ve visited Japan on a number of occasions?

you?

 

[cosmicchris00]

remember though at the time the Atom bomb was just a bigger bomb in a whole line of bigger bombs

but yes, a very grim period

think about it another way - WW2 generals were only 25 years or so removed from WW1, they had most likely served as junior officers during WW1 and watched their leaders plan offensives that gained 3 miles at a loss of over 50k troops

Planners in 1945 are saying to expect 500k to 1M allied casualties for Downfall

If you have the worlds most destructive bomb - you'd use it

Many didn't want it to be used as they believed the Japanese were about to surrendee anyway.

Blood and Guts MacArthur and Eisenhower both found the whole atom bomb thing distasteful.

Trueman wanted it used to demonstrate US power - to the Russkis and any other potential adversary.

 

[double maxim]

Could have given prior notice to the Japanese to evacuate a sparsely populated area/island to demonstrate its power and then dropped it saying surrender or the next one goes into a city.

Dropping them on hiroshima and nagasaki was a shithouse move but not that far detached morally from carpet bombing of cities which was common in the Pacific and European theatres. I'm sure I remember reading that bombing raids on cities in Japan which used traditional bombs killed more than the nukes did.

 

[Lord Potts]

Im sorry but that is just nonsense. ibhonestly ain’t understand where people get this total gibberish from


daftie

I wrote my dissertation on WW2 japan and the resource implications of Japanese military mobilisation.

i read and speak Japanese and I’ve visited Japan on a number of occasions?

you?

You shouldn't have any trouble providing references that support your arguments then should you? I am keen to learn .

 

[Northumberland Rocks]

I don't blame the U.S for using the bomb at all.

Hindsight is a lovely thing.

The Japanese were a theocratic nation resorting to such extreme measures as suicide attacks.

Imagine at the time if the public found out about the bomb and trying to explain why they didn't drop it but instead thought it better to let hundreds of thousands more of their countrymen be slaughtered on the mainland.

Sad but true.

 

[Deleted member 27897]

Alternative History: If the U.S didn't drop the bomb

The decision to drop the bombs on forcing Japan to surrender unconditionally to the United States was also motivated by the emerging signs of geopolitical rivalry with the Soviet Union and the grab for power and influence in North East Asia. If they didn't do it, Stalin would have got to Japan first (by obvious geographical advantage).

On 9th August the Soviet Union declared war against Japan and invaded their occupied territory in Manchuria. If the Japanese had not surrendered and combat had continued, the Soviets would have quickly invaded Japan themselves and its eventual defeat would have been a forced partition in a East-West Germany situation. The Cold War immediately takes a different track as Japan is no longer a robust U.S ally, but also now has a Communist State on it which we would know as "North Japan".

Second of all, the history of Korea would also have changed. After Japan's surrender the Soviet Union marched into the North of Korea from Manchuria, and the United States had the military clout to demand joint occupation zones at the 38th parallel. But if the war against Japan continued, the Soviet advance would have continued by geographic inevitability and Stalin would have occupied all of the Korean peninsula instead. There would be no "north and south" Korea, all of Korea would be under the Kim regime.

Just some food for thought if the U.S had not decided to make those decisions. Of course they were horrific and the human toll was catastrophic, but from a geopolitical perspective things could have been very different. All we can do is ensure that nuclear weapons are never under any circumstances used against a human population again.

 

[Lankester Merrin]

You shouldn't have any trouble providing references that support your arguments then should you? I am keen to learn .

Pretty much any academic historian

This debate shows the difference between pop history and the internet (which is still stuck with stereotypes of fanatical japanese obsessively fighting to the death) and academic history (which mostly moved on from that decades ago)

 

[E M P I R E]

Pretty much any academic historian

This debate shows the difference between pop history and the internet (which is still stuck with stereotypes of fanatical japanese obsessively fighting to the death) and academic history (which mostly moved on from that decades ago)

I was listening to a podcast about this a few days ago with Kevin Ruane, Professor of Modern History at Canterbury Christ Church Uni, and he said that although some historians have moved on from that, he referred to it as 'revisionism'. It was a very interesting listen. He also made the point that the emperor was regarded as a living god and the Japanese didn't surrender before the bomb because they received no promises on what unconditional surrender meant for the emperor. So I'm not entirely sure it's, as you say, a western stereotype.

There's also a small handful of Japanese soldiers who were found hiding on pacific islands decades after the war which would suggest the 'fanatical Japanese fighting to the death' isn't necessarily a stereotype.

The link if anyone wants to give it a listen: America, Japan and the Atomic Bomb - How and Why History - 'How And Why History - American, Japan and the Atomic Bomb.'

 

[Scotty]

Pretty much any academic historian

This debate shows the difference between pop history and the internet (which is still stuck with stereotypes of fanatical japanese obsessively fighting to the death) and academic history (which mostly moved on from that decades ago)

I'm afraid you'll have to do better than that