75 years since the bomb

Football Dinosaur

Football Dinosaur

Winger
Thought this was more than worth a thread and couldn't see one already.

Japan today mark 75th anniversary of the dropping of the second atomic bomb (fiorst being the trinity test bomb in los alamo new mexico). The world has changed hugely over the last 75 years and its important the world remembers how destructive these weapons are. Theres a place as a deterant but we should do all we can to ensure non-proliferation and ease tensons in areas like India/Pakistan where use of the bomb could occur.

Theres a massive argument over weather the bomb should have been used as Japan were essentially beaten, Col Paul Tibbets (pilot of Enola Gay which dropped the bomb) was adimant that they saved hundreds of thousands of allied lives, it also sent a message to the soviets. However the death toll was huge and the effects of radioactivity terrible. Trueman would threaten the bomb many times after WW2 ended and it seemed nucelar war was enevitable. We seemed to have stepped back from the brink as a species. Hopefully we learn our lessions.

Bells toll to mark 75 years since Hiroshima bomb
 


They weren’t essentially beaten though,look at the resistance the Japanese gave during the war in the Pacific , the next option was an invasion of Japan.

The potential losses of US/ allied forces were incalculable if they succeeded at all.

The bombs were the only option to get the Japanese to surrender , they should have capitulated after the first one.
 
Considering fatalities as to whether or not the bomb(s) sholud've been used. There were 210,000 people killed by the two nuclear bombs. The battle for one island (Okinawa) itself, claimed 240,000 lives. The problem is that the nuclear bomb can't be "uninvented". Country's can scrap their weapons, but there will always be the capability, and technology to re-build them.
 
I don't blame the U.S for using the bomb at all.

Hindsight is a lovely thing.

The Japanese were a theocratic nation resorting to such extreme measures as suicide attacks.

Imagine at the time if the public found out about the bomb and trying to explain why they didn't drop it but instead thought it better to let hundreds of thousands more of their countrymen be slaughtered on the mainland.
 
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They are not a deterrent for conflict sadly.
Might as well not have them, it's madness to think who has the power to unleash them.
Yet they worry about them in the hands of dictators.
It's quite comical.
 
Aituk7 said:
I don't blame the U.S for using the bomb at all.

Hindsight is a lovely thing.

The Japanese were a theocratic nation resorting to such extreme measures as suicide attacks.

Imagine at the time if the public found out about the bomb and trying to explain why they didn't drop it but instead thought it better to let hundreds of thousands more of their countrymen be slaughtered on the mainland.
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What theology? I always had them down as quite secular people.
 
Frijj said:
What theology? I always had them down as quite secular people.
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The emperor of Japan was revered as a god and worshipped accordingly at the time.

en.wikipedia.org

Theocracy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

Japan[edit]
The emperor was historically venerated as the descendant of the Shinto sun goddess Amaterasu. Through this line of descent, the emperor was seen as a living god who was the supreme leader of the Japanese people. This status only changed with the Occupation of Japan following the end of the Second World War when Emperor Hirohito was forced to declare that he was not a living god in order for Japan to reorganize into a democratic nation.[36]
 
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Aituk7 said:
I don't blame the U.S for using the bomb at all.

Hindsight is a lovely thing.

The Japanese were a theocratic nation resorting to such extreme measures as suicide attacks.

Imagine at the time if the public found out about the bomb and trying to explain why they didn't drop it but instead thought it better to let hundreds of thousands more of their countrymen be slaughtered on the mainland.
Click to expand...

You wouldn't need hindsight if you try diplomacy measures first.
'We asked them to surrender and they wouldn't, they knew the consequences'.

Not unreasonable.
 
Aituk7 said:
The emperor of Japan was revered as a god and worshipped accordingly at the time.

en.wikipedia.org

Theocracy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

Japan[edit]
The emperor was historically venerated as the descendant of the Shinto sun goddess Amaterasu. Through this line of descent, the emperor was seen as a living god who was the supreme leader of the Japanese people. This status only changed with the Occupation of Japan following the end of the Second World War when Emperor Hirohito was forced to declare that he was not a living god in order for Japan to reorganize into a democratic nation.[36]
Click to expand...

The more you know
 
joemcdokes said:
You wouldn't need hindsight if you try diplomacy measures first.
'We asked them to surrender and they wouldn't, they knew the consequences'.

Not unreasonable.
Click to expand...
I've read lots of conflicting stuff on this but I certainly take your point of view. I guess after 4 years of war the yanks wanted to demonstrate just how powerful they'd become. I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case and they wanted to demonstrate to the soviet union in particular what strength they had.
Frijj said:
The more you know
Click to expand...
It just goes to show how much religion and the culture it develops can warp people's minds about things.

I mean there's no way my Grandad would be even capable of believing any person to be a living God. It just doesn't compute with him. Would be insane.

But in Japan at the time it was rife throughout the entirety of the society.

I imagine now it seems almost laughable to Japanese people and similarly ridiculous
 
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joemcdokes said:
You wouldn't need hindsight if you try diplomacy measures first.
'We asked them to surrender and they wouldn't, they knew the consequences'.

Not unreasonable.
Click to expand...

" The United States feared that the Japanese, being forewarned, would shoot down the planes carrying the bombs. And since Japanese cities were already being destroyed by incendiary and high-explosive bombs on a regular basis — nearly 100,000 people were killed the previous March in the firebombing of Tokyo — there was no reason to believe that either the Potsdam Declaration or Truman’s speech would receive special notice. "

A pro U.S perspective on events, might be of interest.
 
Aituk7 said:
I've read lots of conflicting stuff on this but I certainly take your point of view. I guess after 4 years of war the yanks wanted to demonstrate just how powerful they'd become. I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case and they wanted to demonstrate to the soviet union in particular what strength they had.
Click to expand...

An interesting piece here.


In mid-1940 Roosevelt moved the U.S. Pacific Fleet to Pearl Harbor, Hawaii, to deter Japan.[5] On October 8, 1940, Admiral James O. Richardson, Commander in Chief, Pacific Fleet, provoked a confrontation with Roosevelt by repeating his earlier arguments to Chief of Naval Operations Admiral Harold R. Stark and Secretary of the Navy Frank Knox that Pearl Harbor was the wrong place for his ships. Roosevelt believed relocating the fleet to Hawaii would exert a "restraining influence" on Japan.[citation needed]

Richardson asked the President if the United States was going to war.
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OOOSH YEAH said:
In hindsight it was the best thing that could have been done. Imagine a land invasion of Japan? Doesn’t bare thinking about. They had been warned and took no notice.
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From a USA perspective i probably agree, hell of a decision to make for Truman though.
 
The entire theory behind MAD worked relatively well when dealing with a system of rationale actors. Not so much when in the hands of dictators, despots and religious fanatics.

North Korea are apparently now there according to the UN the other day and the Saudis and Iran are not far behind.

I get the feeling the next major weapons advances will be defensive.
 
I wonder without the horrors of both Hiroshima and Nagasaki still reasonably fresh in American and Soviet minds would the Cold War have become Hot?
Though this time an exchange of dozens perhaps hundreds of warheads.
MonkeyLove said:
The entire theory behind MAD worked relatively well when dealing with a system of rationale actors. Not so much when in the hands of dictators, despots and religious fanatics.

North Korea are apparently now there according to the UN the other day and the Saudis and Iran are not far behind.

I get the feeling the next major weapons advances will be defensive.
Click to expand...

Japan has been described as a "Desktop Nuclear Power" as they have all the ingredients at hand to build a device, the only thing stopping them is International Agreements and memories of 1945.
These would be pushed aside if Japan felt the Country needed them as a defensive tool.
 
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KeefBeer said:
I wonder without the horrors of both Hiroshima and Nagasaki still reasonably fresh in American and Soviet minds would the Cold War have become Hot?
Though this time an exchange of dozens perhaps hundreds of warheads.


Japan has been described as a "Desktop Nuclear Power" as they have all the ingredients at hand to build a device, the only thing stopping them is International Agreements and memories of 1945.
These would be pushed aside if Japan felt the Country needed them as a defensive tool.
Click to expand...

I meant defensive more in the terms of missile defence tools.
 

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