£9,000,000 of taxpayers money......

[Deleted member 27897]

Whether you are leave or stay, please note that Cameron has actually U-turned on and ignored a House of Commons vote which he lost, to do this.

Tory rebels blocked the amendment to the "purdah" rule and the government lost the vote, preventing them from taking a side on the referendum. Yet the twats have gone and done it anyway.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-34173126

 

[Deleted member 361]

Is it too much to ask that we can get a neutral information leaflet ? Absolute disgrace that this is seemingly impossible

 

[Wierd Valley Mackem]

Is it too much to ask that we can get a neutral information leaflet ? Absolute disgrace that this is seemingly impossible

I doubt that is possible? Its one sides version no matter how you look at it. One side says we will definitely lose jobs, the other side says we will gain jobs etc. etc.
The only way to look at it is, do you want to be part of a Federal Superstate or independent? Everything else is secondary and speculation IMO.

 

[viccarlton]

Aye seen that on the news, what an absolute waste, about 70% of the population won't even read it. Should have a good old debate and get the facts out there.

Liam Fox suggests sending them back to Downing Street, I will do this without putting a stamp on.

 

[10 Gary Rowells]

I doubt that is possible? Its one sides version no matter how you look at it. One side says we will definitely lose jobs, the other side says we will gain jobs etc. etc.
The only way to look at it is, do you want to be part of a Federal Superstate or independent? Everything else is secondary and speculation IMO.

Whereas the use of terms such as 'Federal Superstate or independence' are based on perception/emotion and lack any form of accuracy. You have to speculate if you are going to try and determine whether such a fundamental change to our economy will affect our lives detrimentally or otherwise.

 

[Howard the Duck]

I haven't read the thread so I don't know if this has been asked but, regardless of whether it's right or wrong to use public funds to fight the Bremain cause, how the fuck do they run up a bill of £9m to produce a 12 page leaflet!!

 

[wash]

I haven't read the thread so I don't know if this has been asked but, regardless of whether it's right or wrong to use public funds to fight the Bremain cause, how the fuck do they run up a bill of £9m to produce a 12 page leaflet!!

Because one is being sent to every household in the country. Somewhere between 17 and 27 million as a wild guess

 

[3para]

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/116762

 

[Wierd Valley Mackem]

Whereas the use of terms such as 'Federal Superstate or independence' are based on perception/emotion and lack any form of accuracy. You have to speculate if you are going to try and determine whether such a fundamental change to our economy will affect our lives detrimentally or otherwise.

They are the only accurate terms in the debate. Everything else is speculation eg. we may lose jobs or we may have a boom etc. are based only on what one side thinks with absolutely no facts to back anything up. There is nobody whatsoever can say 100% what will happen after the referendum people can speculate all they want. So as i said it all boils down to do you wish to be a part of a Federal Superstate? Which is the stated aim of the EU, that they have been saying for years and moving in that direction again for years making no secret of it, or do you wish to be Independent whatever the future holds doing so.

 

[10 Gary Rowells]

They are the only accurate terms in the debate. Everything else is speculation eg. we may lose jobs or we may have a boom etc. are based only on what one side thinks with absolutely no facts to back anything up. There is nobody whatsoever can say 100% what will happen after the referendum people can speculate all they want. So as i said it all boils down to do you wish to be a part of a Federal Superstate? Which is the stated aim of the EU, that they have been saying for years and moving in that direction again for years making no secret of it, or do you wish to be Independent whatever the future holds doing so.

Sorry, where did the EU state they want to be a Federal Superstate?

 

[ajthemackem]

Sorry, where did the EU state they want to be a Federal Superstate?

Was probably on that leaflet.

 

[Wierd Valley Mackem]

Sorry, where did the EU state they want to be a Federal Superstate?

Im not trying to persuade anyone to vote either way on the subject, but when it boils down to it there is only 2 choices Independence or Federalism (we are almost at that stage now giving up loads of areas where we had a veto so its not like its not out there mate)

 

[10 Gary Rowells]

Im not trying to persuade anyone to vote either way on the subject, but when it boils down to it there is only 2 choices Independence or Federalism (we are almost at that stage now giving up loads of areas where we had a veto so its not like its not out there mate)

Sorry but you said a Federalist Superstate was the stated aim of the EU - that is a pretty unequivocal statement. So you have either read this in some official document released by the EU or you are guilty of some awful misinformation which suggest that you very much want to persuade people.

 

[Kid Galahad]

Liam Fox suggests sending them back to Downing Street, I will do this without putting a stamp on.

Canny idea.

 

[wash]

Sorry but you said a Federalist Superstate was the stated aim of the EU - that is a pretty unequivocal statement. So you have either read this in some official document released by the EU or you are guilty of some awful misinformation which suggest that you very much want to persuade people.

The fact that the EU has gone up from the 9 states when we joined to the present 27 with 5 more counties waiting to join and these are some of the poorer or poorest countries in Europe certainly gives me the impression that they want to create a federalist superstate and I for one don't want to be part of that. Especially with the freedom of movement of populations would ensue after they joined.

 

[Wierd Valley Mackem]

Sorry but you said a Federalist Superstate was the stated aim of the EU - that is a pretty unequivocal statement. So you have either read this in some official document released by the EU or you are guilty of some awful misinformation which suggest that you very much want to persuade people.

Are you being serious? What do you think ever closer union is? Or Political integration? Or Fiscal Union? Or Intensified Political Union? What about European arrest warrant? Or European Central bank? Or EU Armed forces and on and on. We joined a customs Union not what this has become. You are an intelligent fella i respect your view on not wanting to leave but dont for a minute say we arent going to be a part of a federal Europe if we stay in, we arent that far off now.

 

[PTR]

Liam Fox suggests sending them back to Downing Street, I will do this without putting a stamp on.

They'll just get billed by royal mail, then put the cost on expenses.

So no, let's not.

 

[10 Gary Rowells]

Are you being serious? What do you think ever closer union is? Or Political integration? Or Fiscal Union? Or Intensified Political Union? What about European arrest warrant? Or European Central bank? Or EU Armed forces and on and on. We joined a customs Union not what this has become. You are an intelligent fella i respect your view on not wanting to leave but dont for a minute say we arent going to be a part of a federal Europe if we stay in, we arent that far off now.

Ain't difficult mate - you said it was a stated aim of the EU - it shouldn't be too difficult to show me that statement or you are guilty of the typical misinformation prevalent on this such of discussion. You made a statement which I can only believe you made up to try to influence people - it was opinion dressed up as fact. If I am wrong I apologise but saying it's a stated aim should be too difficult to back up.

The fact that the EU has gone up from the 9 states when we joined to the present 27 with 5 more counties waiting to join and these are some of the poorer or poorest countries in Europe certainly gives me the impression that they want to create a federalist superstate and I for one don't want to be part of that. Especially with the freedom of movement of populations would ensue after they joined.

No my point is that some believe that a Federal Super State is the ultimate objective. This will be denied by many EU politicians. The poster said that is was the EU's stated aim as if it was fact. If it is actually not their stated aim then it is just the sort of awful misinformation that we see form both sides. It may be a widely held opinion but if you wrongly try to dress it up as fact then it is misinformation. That is not semantics but a real concern and symptom of our current malaise of forming opinion on social media rather than actually finding out facts.

 

[Wierd Valley Mackem]

Ain't difficult mate - you said it was a stated aim of the EU - it shouldn't be too difficult to show me that statement or you are guilty of the typical misinformation prevalent on this such of discussion. You made a statement which I can only believe you made up to try to influence people - it was opinion dressed up as fact. If I am wrong I apologise but saying it's a stated aim should be too difficult to back up.


No my point is that some believe that a Federal Super State is the ultimate objective. This will be denied by many EU politicians. The poster said that is was the EU's stated aim as if it was fact. If it is actually not their stated aim then it is just the sort of awful misinformation that we see form both sides. It may be a widely held opinion but if you wrongly try to dress it up as fact then it is misinformation. That is not semantics but a real concern and symptom of our current malaise of forming opinion on social media rather than actually finding out facts.

The EU is almost a Federal state now man and you are absolutely using semantics.
Over and over various Commissioners and Presidents of the EU have not only talked about closer union, political integration (or my favourite) intensified political Union etc etc. they have moved us towards federal state (with our own Governments compliance). We have a central bank, a President, a Parliament, an anthem, i could go on and on we are a kick in the arse of the country of Europe tell me what else they need? An army well thats on the cards so it cant be that maybe its a football team that might convince you?
Its hardly misinformation if they have done it and talk about it? We (the UK) have signed treaties transferring various amounts of control to the Council, the Commission and to a lesser extent the Parliament, to the extent that when the democratically elected Prime Minister of this country went with his demands to the EU he was basically told to fuck off son and stop being silly theres a good lad now run along.
Look up the last big treaty the Treaty of Nice where we gave up veto on loads of things, we transferred power to the Central or Federal EU (or whatever way you want to dress it up semantically) Government away from the British Parliament. The EU is now almost the controlling power of the Countries that make it, if thats not Federalism then you are going to have to explain it mate?

 

[10 Gary Rowells]

The EU is almost a Federal state now man and you are absolutely using semantics.
Over and over various Commissioners and Presidents of the EU have not only talked about closer union, political integration (or my favourite) intensified political Union etc etc. they have moved us towards federal state (with our own Governments compliance). We have a central bank, a President, a Parliament, an anthem, i could go on and on we are a kick in the arse of the country of Europe tell me what else they need? An army well thats on the cards so it cant be that maybe its a football team that might convince you?
Its hardly misinformation if they have done it and talk about it? We (the UK) have signed treaties transferring various amounts of control to the Council, the Commission and to a lesser extent the Parliament, to the extent that when the democratically elected Prime Minister of this country went with his demands to the EU he was basically told to fuck off son and stop being silly theres a good lad now run along.
Look up the last big treaty the Treaty of Nice where we gave up veto on loads of things, we transferred power to the Central or Federal EU (or whatever way you want to dress it up semantically) Government away from the British Parliament. The EU is now almost the controlling power of the Countries that make it, if thats not Federalism then you are going to have to explain it mate?

No, I am making a very serious point, one which you understand. You have said that it is EU's stated aim of creating a Federalist State - that is an expression of fact by you. This will influence people to vote No if people take it as fact. However, it is quite clear from your posts that it is an opinion of yours, stated as fact. You may be able to point to certain happenings to back up your opinion and other may agree but you have exhibited something which is a real problem, in my opinion. This is not semantics at all but, as I say, a very serious point I am making, which I think you should acknowledge. I will drop this now but it is pretty disappointing when in the past I think we have had decent debate from different standpoints.