Paul Collingwood on Loyalty

stephen cartwright said:
It's your point. You said it was bollocks that being on TV a lot brought selection.

Despite that clearly being the case for the last forty years, performances on TV gained people headlines and tour places.

As part of the selectors are Frazer and Newell, I doubt very much they would watch any game of derbys or Gloucester unless it was at lord's or Trent bridge

Who knows what players are doing the business, they get virtually nil coverage outside their own county

Last thing.

Why are you disregarding any clear point I'm making, to state a question to suit your view?

I've given pretty clear statements and as this thread again, is about LOYALTY you questions don't reflect that


You make the point clear, that I was ridiculed as being bollocks, unbelievably
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The thread may be about loyalty, but that does not mean if I disagree with your point I can't respond.

I had nothing to say about the loyalty bit, as did not really interest me.

However I disagree that the best players are not selected for their country, if a Gloucester or Derby player was scoring lots runs of course people would know?
 


Former Player said:
Very short memories mind. Melvin Betts certainly springs to mind as does Mark Saggers. Both made excellent careers when they left Durham.
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Define excellent?

Saggers was relegated in the game Durham won the Championship.

You might have a point with Betts, although I'm not sure he was much more than a useful county plodder - I concede a sketchy memory may cloud my judgement on that one.

For the record I'd have kept both players, but in the long run, I think after those players the club went from strength to strength.
 
Voice of fair play said:
The thread may be about loyalty, but that does not mean if I disagree with your point I can't respond.

I had nothing to say about the loyalty bit, as did not really interest me.

However I disagree that the best players are not selected for their country, if a Gloucester or Derby player was scoring lots runs of course people would know?
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The loyalty point does not interest you, yet you felt it worth saying it was bollocks, when I made a point about loyalty on a loyalty thread FFS

You've got a brass neck all right. Decent arguments put forward are fine by me, but yours has nowt to do with the whole point of the thread
 
stephen cartwright said:
The loyalty point does not interest you, yet you felt it worth saying it was bollocks, when I made a point about loyalty on a loyalty thread FFS

You've got a brass neck all right. Decent arguments put forward are fine by me, but yours has nowt to do with the whole point of the thread
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Once again mate I agree my point has nothing to do with the point of the thread I agree totally.

However I simply think both selectors of the England team and managers of the England football team pick what they consider the best team to win games.

You said they pick players depending on what club they play for ,I disagree so responded to your post when you said they did.

You right my point had nothing to do with the point of the thread but was a direct response to your post.

You been on here long enough to know that discussions depending what is said by posters sometimes go away from the original discussion of the thread which is allowed as far as I know
 
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Voice of fair play said:
Once again mate I agree my point has nothing to do with the point of the thread I agree totally.

However I simply think both selectors of the England team and managers of the England football team pick what they consider the best team to win games.

You said they pick players depending on what club they play for ,I disagree so responded to your post why you said they did.

You right my point had nothing to do with the point of the thread but was a direct response to your post.
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Fair enough

It will increase in years to come that the favoured counties will stockpile talents. It's pretty clear to me that will be the case.

After 2020 this will increase and the chosen ones will tap up the drafted talents from those on the outside.


Wrong, a shame but it's happening
 
stephen cartwright said:
Fair enough

It will increase in years to come that the favoured counties will stockpile talents. It's pretty clear to me that will be the case.

After 2020 this will increase and the chosen ones will tap up the drafted talents from those on the outside.


Wrong, a shame but it's happening
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Well yeah agree, if large counties attract the best players then you are dead right them players will get picked for England.

But that is because they are the best players not because of who they play for.

It is a shame I agree.

Much like football the best players are at the big clubs so that is why they get picked beacuse they are the best players.
 
brandon said:
Define excellent?

Saggers was relegated in the game Durham won the Championship.

You might have a point with Betts, although I'm not sure he was much more than a useful county plodder - I concede a sketchy memory may cloud my judgement on that one.

For the record I'd have kept both players, but in the long run, I think after those players the club went from strength to strength.
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Melvin Betts 117 1st Class Games 347 wickets best bowling 9 for 46 is much better than a county plodder.
Martin Saggers 119 1st Class Games 415 wickets best bowling 7 for 79. 3 tests for England.
Hope this defines excellent. Enough said really.
 
There is no doubt in my mind some of them could have shown more loyalty, I keep reading on here its a short career, down earn money like footballers blah blah, but from what I heard, the contracts were not much different, offered good money here, a lot of them just jumping a sinking ship

I mean what on earth is Jennings and Coughlin really benefiting from going there

Jenning swas called up due to form with Durham, he was made captain of the Lions due to form with Durham, and then captained the north in the one day series

Lot of "good luck mate" and all this stuff, but its pretty poor by some of them, and I am glad Colly has said something, because its certainly how I feel

I still wish them well if they make it to England, I want nothing more for Rocky to succeed, but still leaves a bitter taste for me. Jumping at the first sign of trouble
 
Former Player said:
Melvin Betts 117 1st Class Games 347 wickets best bowling 9 for 46 is much better than a county plodder.
Martin Saggers 119 1st Class Games 415 wickets best bowling 7 for 79. 3 tests for England.
Hope this defines excellent. Enough said really.
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Again it depends on what you define as excellent. I'd argue Durham didn't particularly miss either of them when you look at who replaced them, the effect they had during and after, the stage of their careers, what honours they won and what honours we won.

On the subject of Betts, how many of those matches/wickets were for us? Because they are irrelevant to the debate aren't they? When they question is whether he went downhill after leaving us. Did his average and his strike rate improve after he left us or did it get worse?

County plodder wise - I notice you didn't share his average. It was 30. That added to the fact he never played for England leads me to confirm what I said originally, he'll be remembered in the mainstream as no more than a county plodder. It's semantics in truth.

Personally I will always remember and acknowledge Betts' contribution to Durham. He was a great asset during the early formative years of DCCC and history is something that means a lot to me (and should be important to all who support our county). I will always feel that the successes we've been blessed with were in some part made possible because of the hard yakka of lads like Melvyn Betts. So don't think I'm disrespecting him with what I say above.

I concede that Saggers was seriously underused and undervalued with us. His three Tests were only possible because we let him go, let him flourish somewhere else. I still don't know why he wasn't regarded higher here, but again - he's hardly going to be remembered as a cricketing great is he? With his numbers and his legacy.

So, to summarise, in my view you're wrong. The two players you brought up certainly didn't make 'excellent' careers.
 
brandon said:
Again it depends on what you define as excellent. I'd argue Durham didn't particularly miss either of them when you look at who replaced them, the effect they had during and after, the stage of their careers, what honours they won and what honours we won.

On the subject of Betts, how many of those matches/wickets were for us? Because they are irrelevant to the debate aren't they? When they question is whether he went downhill after leaving us. Did his average and his strike rate improve after he left us or did it get worse?

County plodder wise - I notice you didn't share his average. It was 30. That added to the fact he never played for England leads me to confirm what I said originally, he'll be remembered in the mainstream as no more than a county plodder. It's semantics in truth.

Personally I will always remember and acknowledge Betts' contribution to Durham. He was a great asset during the early formative years of DCCC and history is something that means a lot to me (and should be important to all who support our county). I will always feel that the successes we've been blessed with were in some part made possible because of the hard yakka of lads like Melvyn Betts. So don't think I'm disrespecting him with what I say above.

I concede that Saggers was seriously underused and undervalued with us. His three Tests were only possible because we let him go, let him flourish somewhere else. I still don't know why he wasn't regarded higher here, but again - he's hardly going to be remembered as a cricketing great is he? With his numbers and his legacy.

So, to summarise, in my view you're wrong. The two players you brought up certainly didn't make 'excellent' careers.
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If I’d been fortunate enough to play 1st Class Cricket and taken 350 1st Class Wickets I certainly think I’d of had an excellent career.
 
I think it's publicity of playing for a different club rather than the actual playing for a club. The media seem to have always had a lot of sway in all sports and who is championing Durham players for England? People bang on about certain players from their club on the TV and in writing and build up a hype about them. There is only so much cricket 3 or so selectors can watch. Westley, Overton, Vince all had people in their corner. How many people actually watch County Cricket? People repeat what they hear, until Crane is the next Warne for example, without ever seeing them play
 
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brandon said:
Again it depends on what you define as excellent. I'd argue Durham didn't particularly miss either of them when you look at who replaced them, the effect they had during and after, the stage of their careers, what honours they won and what honours we won.

On the subject of Betts, how many of those matches/wickets were for us? Because they are irrelevant to the debate aren't they? When they question is whether he went downhill after leaving us. Did his average and his strike rate improve after he left us or did it get worse?

County plodder wise - I notice you didn't share his average. It was 30. That added to the fact he never played for England leads me to confirm what I said originally, he'll be remembered in the mainstream as no more than a county plodder. It's semantics in truth.

Personally I will always remember and acknowledge Betts' contribution to Durham. He was a great asset during the early formative years of DCCC and history is something that means a lot to me (and should be important to all who support our county). I will always feel that the successes we've been blessed with were in some part made possible because of the hard yakka of lads like Melvyn Betts. So don't think I'm disrespecting him with what I say above.

I concede that Saggers was seriously underused and undervalued with us. His three Tests were only possible because we let him go, let him flourish somewhere else. I still don't know why he wasn't regarded higher here, but again - he's hardly going to be remembered as a cricketing great is he? With his numbers and his legacy.

So, to summarise, in my view you're wrong. The two players you brought up certainly didn't make 'excellent' careers.
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Mate not sure if you can remember Melvyn Betts but I can tell you, one of the best local young players to play for Durham in the first class era. If it wasn't for the back injuries he suffered early in his career which resulted in him changing his action i think he would have played for England.
 
The Rat said:
There is no doubt in my mind some of them could have shown more loyalty, I keep reading on here its a short career, down earn money like footballers blah blah, but from what I heard, the contracts were not much different, offered good money here, a lot of them just jumping a sinking ship

I mean what on earth is Jennings and Coughlin really benefiting from going there
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Does anyone know? Did Collingwood ask them? If so what did they say and what are Durham going to do about it?

There are too many questions here and no answers.

Durham CCC - "oh BTW we cant pay you very much, we'd like you to forget that you can earn more money elsewhere and play at a higher standard, perhaps get into the England cricket team; and we'd like you to stay here out of loyalty"

Doesnt sound like a convincing case to me. Does it to anyone?
 
Buchans Boots said:
Does anyone know? Did Collingwood ask them? If so what did they say and what are Durham going to do about it?

There are too many questions here and no answers.

Durham CCC - "oh BTW we cant pay you very much, we'd like you to forget that you can earn more money elsewhere and play at a higher standard, perhaps get into the England cricket team; and we'd like you to stay here out of loyalty"

Doesnt sound like a convincing case to me. Does it to anyone?
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Eh? :confused::confused::confused:
 
The Rat said:
Eh? :confused::confused::confused:
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Eh? What?

I'll spell it out for you:

Has anyone asked the Durham players why they are leaving?
If so and they know - then what are Durham going to do about it.
If they havent asked - isnt it about time that they did?

Finally, the clincher:

If someone is seriously saying that the players should stay here out of loyalty when - they can earn more money playing for someone else, can play in the first division rather than the backwater of the second division and have more of a chance of playing for England then they are seriously delusional.

If Durham want their cricketers to stay then here is a few ideas:

Pay them more, and
Get into the first division

Its like asking Defoe to play in the football league for Sunderland when he can play in the premier league. No one with any ambition is going to do that.
 

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