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SOL expansion


Sgt Pepper said:
If anyone thinks you’d see the sort of celebrations we did after Ballard’s Coventry goal with a ground diluted with tourists they’re deluded. Bet hey, great for the revenue eh.
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Why are some obsessed with tourists? We're not a tourist club at all and never will be unless we somehow did a Man City and became massive globally which given football at the top is a closed shop will never happen sadly. Aye we may get a few more 'tourists' but it will be in the 100's if that.

The extra fans we're seeing are the fair weather or glory seekers who won't go in the Championship but will still be lads fans and probably watch them on TV and still buy the strips/merchandise etc but just don't go to games. They aren't the more die hard fans who will chant no matter what unless the players get the crowd going and that's football these days sadly.

All clubs have more fans in the Premier League than they would if they were in the Championship. Yet some go on as if all fans should attend the game no matter the division even though this has happened throughout the history of football at all clubs, including us at Roker Park.

Even in a single top flight season, crowds fluctuated by 20-30,000 in the Roker Park days. At the SOL it's around 10,000 through the season. The problem we face now is the capacity doesn't allow the natural fluctuation of crowds in football and some are obsessed with having every seat full. Having a full stadium all the time means fans are missing out and not everyone can commit to a season ticket.

If anyone thinks just keeping capacity as it is will mean you keep the Ballard atmosphere then they're deluded. What happens is, the club up the prices and the more affluent get the seats and the less affluent get priced out. Which fan, on average, make the most noise, the affluent who would stop going if relegated or the less affluent who would still go to games?
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This is the graph I did a while back showing the natural fluctuation of crowds at Roker during it's peak years for attendances from 1946 to 1958 and our last stint in the Premier league.

The red line is the average and a blue dot is a single game. The SOL days would have higher dots if capacity had been 70,000 to allow for the bigger games such as the mags etc. The problem we have now is the lowest attendances that were mid 30s last time in the PL are now in the mid 40s so and extra 10,000. Even though being in the PL again is 'new' football has grown in the last 10 years and we'd probably average over 50k now if we had a 55k stadium as long as we stayed in the Premier League

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ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK said:
If KLD was ever to sell, already having the expanded stadium would add value so he'd also get a return that way.
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Not always, as bigger ground comes with bigger costs (maintenance, rates etc) and if the crowds dont materialise (or if its him cutting his losses after a relegation) it can be a hindrance if things dont work out. This is not me being negative in saying this will happen, its more of a generic overview of football clubs & stadiums in general, a bit like an old person in a massive house they can no longer financially maintain, the house loses value as it becomes worn & dated. Conversly if the opposite happens, the stadium will increase in value as it becomes a bigger income generator.
 
Sgt Pepper said:
Largely though this is down to touristy fans and the increase in that sort of (imo) sickening market. I’m not convinced, and am actually quite proud of, the fact we don’t seem to have that market yet. I would rather 40,000-45,000 proper Sunderland supporters in the ground than 60,000 diluted by tourists. Look what has happened to Spurs compared to the old WHL. Absolutely tragic. I don’t know how many times this needs pointed out either, and I’m aware some will not understand that point of view and see it as holding the club back.

I find it hugely depressing the way English football is going tbh and the drive to ‘increase the revenue!’ at the expense of working class support because this is what is happening - prices all over are shooting up and anybody thinking an extension would mean prices can remain the same or reduce is deluded, they’d simply want to exploit more money out of it somewhere.
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Anyone thinking if we didn't extend the 'cheaper' prices would be the same as the 'cheaper' prices if we did extend is deluded. Last time in the Premier League, we had one of the lowest revenues per fan in the Premier League. The reason for that is because of the large capacity allowing more of the concession prices to be sold, more so the younger generations. Even though we haven't been selling out in the last 2 seasons, the club have been pushing up the prices as the signs are there already what is potentially to come.

They've already reduced the U16 to U14 and they've considerably increased the prices for and aged 21 or younger, more so in certain parts of the stadium. They're trying to push the younger generation into the North & South away from the East & West. You only have to look at other clubs to see what will happen if demand keeps exceeding supply as I showed Leeds the other day, but most clubs do it now. Some quote cheap tickets at other clubs but don't realise those are just only for restricted areas like the £510 of Leeds is below. Taking a bairn to the match is £816 (£645 for our 2022 renewals) but restricted to less than a 1/4 of the ground or it would be £907. Look at the prices of their concessions and 16-18.

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This image below has 3 sets of prices. On the left starting at the top left is last season's 2025/26 early bird renewal price. The set below is the renewal this season for the loyal supporters. The 3rd set at bottom left are the new prices that those on the waiting list just paid.

On the top right is the increase in £s from the 2025/26 renewal to the 2026/27 new prices. Top right is the difference in £s of loyal renewals this season to new STs. Bottom right is the percentage they've gone up since the 2025/26 prices. I'm not sure on the map colouring as this shows P15, P17 & P19 as blue whereas older versions showed it yellow.



They're clearly heading towards making more money from the younger generation. If these are the prices for new ST then how much are single match tickets for the younger generation next season given the rise in ST prices from 2025/26 to the new ones now?

To think prices won't go up again next renewal if we stop up is naive. Some fans may well wake up and realise what's coming hard and fast. All the club are doing is starting to price out fans and the longer it goes on then some of those not wanting an extension any time soon may well find themselves possibly being priced out, especially if wanting to take the bairn(s).

If they extend then they can charge the extra for those who want somewhere to grab some drink and food. More importantly they can also have the cheaper seats as an option so prices for the less affluent wouldn't go up as much as they would without an extension. If we get relegated then drop the prices as fans will still go to games in the Championship as football isn't all about winning games, it's a social event for many 1,000s of fans who go with family and friends. They way it's heading, some parents won't be taking their kids to games to follow in their footsteps just like many SAFC generations have done since Roker Park opened. If not then at least the mags can't say hurty words on the internet about empty seats.
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:edit: I'll add this also as price a parent and a kid out means they sell to 2 adults and make more revenue that way. It's why some clubs have higher average age fans than we do as we have a big young fan base who go to games thanks to the capacity being bigger than demand at the SOL. Lose that and you just end up with the younger fans missing out and less chance of being hooked for life and going through the shit times, just like many 1,000s did the last 8 years.
 
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42 said:
Obviously not a numbers person then, and quite telling that you chopped off the rest of the post. If the club dont think theres a return on investment, it wont happen. That is a fact. And given the comments made by the new gadgy, it does seem they're not fully confident they can get it to work.
Wherever ive challenged you on how it'll work, youve just given me vague nonsense.
Sorry that reality upsets you.
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They will want to see a couple more seasons of stability and sustainability selling out before it becomes financially viable to take the gamble.
 
ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK said:
The extra fans we're seeing are the fair weather or glory seekers who won't go in the Championship but will still be lads fans and probably watch them on TV and still buy the strips/merchandise etc but just don't go to games. They aren't the more die hard fans who will chant no matter what unless the players get the crowd going and that's football these days sadly.
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You can't generalise like that. By that logic, the atmosphere should have been absolutely electric every single week throughout the League 1 years when only the ‘proper diehards’ bothered turning up.
 
Svarta katten said:
You can't generalise like that. By that logic, the atmosphere should have been absolutely electric every single week throughout the League 1 years when only the ‘proper diehards’ bothered turning up.
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the atmosphere for some games in second half of last season was flat to be fair
 
ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK said:
Why are some obsessed with tourists? We're not a tourist club at all and never will be unless we somehow did a Man City and became massive globally which given football at the top is a closed shop will never happen sadly. Aye we may get a few more 'tourists' but it will be in the 100's if that.

The extra fans we're seeing are the fair weather or glory seekers who won't go in the Championship but will still be lads fans and probably watch them on TV and still buy the strips/merchandise etc but just don't go to games. They aren't the more die hard fans who will chant no matter what unless the players get the crowd going and that's football these days sadly.

All clubs have more fans in the Premier League than they would if they were in the Championship. Yet some go on as if all fans should attend the game no matter the division even though this has happened throughout the history of football at all clubs, including us at Roker Park.

Even in a single top flight season, crowds fluctuated by 20-30,000 in the Roker Park days. At the SOL it's around 10,000 through the season. The problem we face now is the capacity doesn't allow the natural fluctuation of crowds in football and some are obsessed with having every seat full. Having a full stadium all the time means fans are missing out and not everyone can commit to a season ticket.

If anyone thinks just keeping capacity as it is will mean you keep the Ballard atmosphere then they're deluded. What happens is, the club up the prices and the more affluent get the seats and the less affluent get priced out. Which fan, on average, make the most noise, the affluent who would stop going if relegated or the less affluent who would still go to games?
.
This is the graph I did a while back showing the natural fluctuation of crowds at Roker during it's peak years for attendances from 1946 to 1958 and our last stint in the Premier league.

The red line is the average and a blue dot is a single game. The SOL days would have higher dots if capacity had been 70,000 to allow for the bigger games such as the mags etc. The problem we have now is the lowest attendances that were mid 30s last time in the PL are now in the mid 40s so and extra 10,000. Even though being in the PL again is 'new' football has grown in the last 10 years and we'd probably average over 50k now if we had a 55k stadium as long as we stayed in the Premier League

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Click to expand...
Best post this month I’ve seen.
 
HebburnMackem said:
They will want to see a couple more seasons of stability and sustainability selling out before it becomes financially viable to take the gamble.
Click to expand...

We're in a funny place at the minute (thats the general populous, not the club) in that even though theres meant to be a cost of living crisis, yet demand for live events (sport, music etc) is through the roof (also at record prices). Which after covid & being locked in the house for a couple of years with next to no social interaction, that spike in demand is understandable. The same happened after WW2, where in the late 40s & early 50s football saw a boom with big crowds flocking to matches. Then crowds started to tail off as i guess the novelty wore off. Will history repeat itself? With social cohesion falling apart, will hooliganism rear its ugly head again? Ive no idea what the future holds, nor does anyone else.

Its easy to get carried away, but you need a robust plan that works for a multitude of eventualities & not overburden yourself too much. Even if they start putting the wheels in motion now, itll be at least 12 months before any work would start, at which point they can put the brakes on if we turn out to be a one season wonder. Mind, if history does repeat itself, there'll be some pretty big casualties id have thought.
 
Sgt Pepper said:
Only thing I’m wishing for is to give it time to see if the demand is sustainable, especially given the way prices are going and will continue to. A concept beyond many it seems.
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That’s the timid wish that gets nothing done tho.
Yes, the prices of building things will go up. So it will cost more later.
If we stand financially still in the Prem, we will go backwards on the pitch.

Basically, if you want to watch Xhaka, Sadiki, Le Fée etc the club needs to be able to pay for them.
If you don’t want the club to sign more of this ilk, then “let’s be careful now”.
 
42 said:
Ffs 🤣
Thats some verbal gymnastics you're doing there. Something thats common sense is a valid reason. Its the same thing. Stop trying to double down on it.
Its petty semantics you're playing & im now done as youve finally admitted what I wanted.
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:lol: :lol:

love a good old meltdown like. Fair play.

I can’t deal with stupid like yourself 👋
 
Blyth said:
How thick can you be. Do you honestly think anyone on here thinks just build it regardless of cost. It has to make sense financially. It’s obvious as fuck.
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What about the "build it and they will come" and the "just get it built" brigade? I'd wager they're not too bothered about the cost
 
Sgt Pepper said:
Nobody is saying let’s never do it. Just some of us are saying wait to see if we continually sell it out because upto now this is only season 3 of 20 odd since the last extension. Read the latest posts about the construction costs these days. This isn’t something that can be knocked up overnight for peanuts. The people demanding an extension would likely be the first to piss and moan if we did and and our budgets on transfers got cut back as we had to cut our cloth accordingly. What’s wrong with finding our feet, assessing the demand and then deciding? Knee jerk decisions generally aren’t very well thought out or end well.

Fuck that though mate, let’s just do it because suddenly demand exceeds supply for the first time in quarter of a century!
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I can answer that now. we're not going to continually sell out. The construction costs are not going to drop, they'll get higher if anything.

Waiting changes nothing, if we sell out for 3 years, it's no garentee that will continue,
 
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