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[1st Test] England v Pakistan (Old Trafford)

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TopCat said:
Michael Vaughan making some interesting (controversial) comments about the bowing attack. Suggesting Archer isn't the 90mph bowler we thought he was. Compared him to Angus Fraser at one point(!)

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Does he have a point? Or is he just being his media personality that many find grating?
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I agree with him. I don't see the point in Archer in the England team. His sheer pace got him in last year but without it, both Wood and Woakes are better bowlers, and Curran provides a lot more wily movement and consistency if he's just in there to be a bog standard medium fast. And there's no discipline or attention in his batting. He just doesn't seem to be that arsed about the whole thing.

And Media Vaughan is a cock
 
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Beau Peep said:
I agree with him. I don't see the point in Archer in the England team. His sheer pace got him in last year but without it, both Wood and Woakes are better bowlers, and Curran provides a lot more wily movement and consistency if he's just in there to be a bog standard medium fast. And there's no discipline or attention in his batting. He just doesn't seem to be that arsed about the whole thing.

And Media Vaughan is a cock
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His record is just as good as wood
 
Beau Peep said:
I agree with him. I don't see the point in Archer in the England team. His sheer pace got him in last year but without it, both Wood and Woakes are better bowlers, and Curran provides a lot more wily movement and consistency if he's just in there to be a bog standard medium fast. And there's no discipline or attention in his batting. He just doesn't seem to be that arsed about the whole thing.

And Media Vaughan is a cock
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He has bowled 90+, and he has the ability to bowl anything from short to yorker with no discernible change in his action. He has it. I just wonder if he isn't over or doesn't fully trust his elbow yet, and if he's the type of character that needs to be be properly in the groove and happy to bowl his best. Whatever is the case, he still should be in every squad.

Couple of other things from the games....

Jos Buttler did pretty well yesterday with the bat (wasn't watching this morning). I doubt they'll bring anyone into the bubble for this series but after his glovework in The Pak's innings' he cannot be the keeper over the winter.

Root has to go back to 4. If Stokes can't bowl in any given match then we pick batsman who bowls a bit and adapt the gameplan. Having Stokes at 4, Buttler at 6 and Woakes at 7 is just insane.

We have a weird fascination with, when we find something great, dicking around with it and ruining everything. When we had Stokes/Bairstow/Ali at 6/7/8 we ruined it trying to solve the problem at 3, now we have Root/Stokes/Pope at 4/5/6, leave it the fuck alone.
 
chunkylover53 said:
Michael Vaughan is a self publicist and a penis. #onon

The Archer situation is interesting as he looks down on pace. Some are suggesting that it’s not effort but his action that where it doesn’t click it’s not happening, vs Wood who relies on brute strength

we also need perspective. He’s having a bad spell, but still taking wickets at 30.
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He seems to attract a lot of criticism like. Still very young in his career and should be cut some slack imo.
 
HarrogateMackem said:
It’ll be an interesting one. You’d think we have someone, if not a couple, who’ll be able to step up and make a ton. But equally I can also envisage a total collapse. Great test match cricket again. What a treat these two series are turning out to be!
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We have some fantastic individuals though who, on their day, could knock off around 250 easily. Stokes has proven this many times, Root is capable of big hundreds, Sibleys got a great amount of hundreds for his small number of games and Pope looks a great player. We just need a couple of them to turn up in top gear and bat incredibly well.

I don’t think we have a long tail, we just have a normal tail that most sides have. We are just spoilt as we normally have someone like Woakes at 9 and Curran at 10, with our fantastic wealth of bowlers who can bat better than the average tail ender.
Mr Redknapp said:
He seems to attract a lot of criticism like. Still very young in his career and should be cut some slack imo.
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I find it more the attitude tbh. He doesn’t come across as very bothered and looks very lazy. When you compare that to someone like Stokes or even a fighter like Broad, then you get quite a difference in attitude and I know which I’d rather have in my team. I agree we should be sticking with him long term, but dropping him for a game to sort out his shit can’t be a bad thing imo at this stage
 
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TravellingMackem said:
We have some fantastic individuals though who, on their day, could knock off around 250 easily. Stokes has proven this many times, Root is capable of big hundreds, Sibleys got a great amount of hundreds for his small number of games and Pope looks a great player. We just need a couple of them to turn up in top gear and bat incredibly well.

I don’t think we have a long tail, we just have a normal tail that most sides have. We are just spoilt as we normally have someone like Woakes at 9 and Curran at 10, with our fantastic wealth of bowlers who can bat better than the average tail ender.


I find it more the attitude tbh. He doesn’t come across as very bothered and looks very lazy. When you compare that to someone like Stokes or even a fighter like Broad, then you get quite a difference in attitude and I know which I’d rather have in my team. I agree we should be sticking with him long term, but dropping him for a game to sort out his shit can’t be a bad thing imo at this stage
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We all have different personalities mate, he will come good. Bess has a cracking attitude but still gets slagged off :lol:
 
Mr Redknapp said:
We all have different personalities mate, he will come good. Bess has a cracking attitude but still gets slagged off :lol:
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Not sure that cuts the mustard at elite level sport to be honest. There are a plethora of players that we can all name who never get near their potential due to being lazy shites. He needs to improve his attitude to fulfill his massive potential, and a dropping and subsequent kick up the arse could do him the world of good
 
TravellingMackem said:
Not sure that cuts the mustard at elite level sport to be honest. There are a plethora of players that we can all name who never get near their potential due to being lazy shites. He needs to improve his attitude to fulfill his massive potential, and a dropping and subsequent kick up the arse could do him the world of good
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It’s dangerous to confuse body language with attitude sometimes

Paul Scholes was never a shouter but he was one of the most dedicated players out there

Joey Barton was a shouter but a complete lost cause
 
chunkylover53 said:
It’s dangerous to confuse body language with attitude sometimes

Paul Scholes was never a shouter but he was one of the most dedicated players out there

Joey Barton was a shouter but a complete lost cause
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Agree with this. Just because someone isn’t puffing out their chest and shouting, doesn’t mean they don’t care or are trying.

To continue the football analogy, Berbatov wandered around the pitch with shoulders slumped looking disinterested. But he was capable of pulling something magic out of nothing. Body language isn’t everything.
 
TravellingMackem said:
Not sure that cuts the mustard at elite level sport to be honest. There are a plethora of players that we can all name who never get near their potential due to being lazy shites. He needs to improve his attitude to fulfill his massive potential, and a dropping and subsequent kick up the arse could do him the world of good
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In Bess' case he is very young for a Spinner and will improve due to his attitude and I've seen enough to suggest he has something, imo of course ;)
Can you imagine if we humans were all the same how boring would that be?.
 
Steak Pie said:
We have a weird fascination with, when we find something great, dicking around with it and ruining everything. When we had Stokes/Bairstow/Ali at 6/7/8 we ruined it trying to solve the problem at 3, now we have Root/Stokes/Pope at 4/5/6, leave it the fuck alone.
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This is very true.
 
Steak Pie said:
He has bowled 90+, and he has the ability to bowl anything from short to yorker with no discernible change in his action. He has it. I just wonder if he isn't over or doesn't fully trust his elbow yet, and if he's the type of character that needs to be be properly in the groove and happy to bowl his best. Whatever is the case, he still should be in every squad.

Couple of other things from the games....

Jos Buttler did pretty well yesterday with the bat (wasn't watching this morning). I doubt they'll bring anyone into the bubble for this series but after his glovework in The Pak's innings' he cannot be the keeper over the winter.

Root has to go back to 4. If Stokes can't bowl in any given match then we pick batsman who bowls a bit and adapt the gameplan. Having Stokes at 4, Buttler at 6 and Woakes at 7 is just insane.

We have a weird fascination with, when we find something great, dicking around with it and ruining everything. When we had Stokes/Bairstow/Ali at 6/7/8 we ruined it trying to solve the problem at 3, now we have Root/Stokes/Pope at 4/5/6, leave it the fuck alone.
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Foakes hasn't left the bubble. They've kept Lawrence leach and bracey in it too. As well as wood and curran

Depends on how the second innings goes but I'd be looking to bring in foakes leach wood and curran in for the next game. With Buttler Bess Archer dropped and one of Jimmy or Woakes rested.

The stuff below the bold is absolutely spot on.
 
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Beau Peep said:
I agree with him. I don't see the point in Archer in the England team. His sheer pace got him in last year but without it, both Wood and Woakes are better bowlers, and Curran provides a lot more wily movement and consistency if he's just in there to be a bog standard medium fast. And there's no discipline or attention in his batting. He just doesn't seem to be that arsed about the whole thing.

And Media Vaughan is a cock
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Woakes and Curran's skill would be redundant next year in Oz.
Archer has the right skills, just needs to gradually speed up as he worries less and less about his elbow.
 
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