Choosing a secondary school

The Ofsted report on Monkwearmouth is pretty shocking and states that they are failing kids of all abilities. I would read it if you haven't already.

They replaced the failing headteacher with his assistant so wouldn't expect big changes.

I know of drug issues there from friends who have kids there and according to parent groups on Facebook there is a bullying epidemic which the school tend to deny or even side with the bullies.

St Anthony's was in the top 10% in the country in recent results (unbelievable for a school in Sunderland) and Monkwearmouth was in the bottom 20%. If you have girls it's a no brainer (or it was for us anyway).
 
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mackem35 said:
So why don't the Humanists build their own schools, rather than ending faith schools ? This is what the Catholic Church and guessing the Church of England did from the 1850s onwards and the same with the voluntary aided Muslim schools more recently. It was only in 1944 with the introduction of the Education Act that they became voluntary aided; all of those schools being brought under government control (and state ownership) with the understanding their religious ethos was allowed to be taught. Faith Schools accept kids of all religions and none and while the ethos is obviously to promote Christian / Muslim etc values nobody is forced to send their children to them. Often the voluntary aided schools are the best performers (fact) and I think there is a touch of resentfulness from parents who are not of that religion that they want the best school but on their terms. I know there are Muslim children and children of no faith that attend St. Anthonys but it looks like the Humanists would have it closed down as it does not confirm to their values.
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There are schools which aren't faith based, however schools are still expected to perform an act of "collective worship".
Current law and government guidance discriminates in favour of religion in requiring daily acts of ‘collective worship’ in schools, and in favour of Christianity in requiring that for schools without a religious character, the majority of these acts of collective worship should be ‘of a broadly Christian character’.

And it's not fact that faith schools perform better.
humanism.org.uk

Faith schools do not perform better than other schools – Humanists UK sets record straight

Humanists UK has challenged new findings that faith schools perform academically better than other state and private schools, highlighting research which shows many religious schools socially select their pupils which is why they might seem to perform better. A report in the Sunday Times...
humanism.org.uk

The way I see it, schools are fair enough to teach children about faiths, but they should do the range. Faith, Athiest and Humanist and Agnostic.

mackem35 said:
Why end private schools too ? Is this a case of I can't afford to send my kids to one so close them all. I can't afford a multi million pound mansion but I would not stop them being built or having them razed to the ground to build social housing. Why don't we just have duplicate identikit schools with cloned teachers and don't ever talk about religion or history with religious overtones, the jews in Nazi Germany, won't teach that, Sikhs don't exist, Buddhists them too but we can't talk about LGBT and Richard Dawkins all day long.
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Why? Because they're elitist moneypits. Yes students who go there will get more opportunities than those who go to state schools, but it's not to say they will get a better education.
I knew people who went to one who came out with next to no GCSEs. If I was paying for it and that was the result, I'd be livid. Then again there will be parents who will send their kids there and not be arsed about their results.
If that's the case, they're just funding the elitist system. An "Old Boys Network" which is out-dated.
I went to one, I believe because my parents thought I'd get more or better discipline there. That was far from the case. I came out with 10 GCSEs, but I was worried throughout because I knew my parents had paid for me to be there.
In my view, that's an unnecessary additional pressure on some kids too.
You want to look at the result of private education? Check out the Tory front bench. Oh and don't forget Mr Farridge.

The rest of your post is just flippant bullshit
 
Harry Angstrom said:
Yes. But better schools have higher standards
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Surely they are set from outside ?
Fulwell76 said:
The Ofsted report on Monkwearmouth is pretty shocking and states that they are failing kids of all abilities. I would read it if you haven't already.

They replaced the failing headteacher with his assistant so wouldn't expect big changes.

I know of drug issues there from friends who have kids there and according to parent groups on Facebook there is a bullying epidemic which the school tend to deny or even side with the bullies.

St Anthony's was in the top 10% in the country in recent results (unbelievable for a school in Sunderland) and Monkwearmouth was in the bottom 20%. If you have girls it's a no brainer (or it was for us anyway).
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I read it ,the failings seemed to be more on kids at the lower end of learning which is fair enough.My sons 4 years in and I've asked him on many occasions about bullying and the like and he says its not something he sees .The drugs is a tougher one to spot but not for kids ,again he's never mentioned anything .Neither are of interest to him but he would mention if it was there
 
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Dave Herbal said:
How do you mean a higher level? If you’re planning on going to sixth form/college, as long as you pass all your GCSEs with good enough grades you’ll get on the A level courses you want. Once you’ve reached that stage, nobody looks at your GCSE results ever again. Once you get beyond showing off to other parents, 9 Bs and Cs are as good as 9 A*s, or whatever they are now. Might be different if your planning on going straight into a job of course, but why would you waste that big A* brain?
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Okay I haven't read the thread so thus might have been replied to by others, but I'm still getting alerts about it Dave, so here's my opinion / take on it:


If she's 'top of her class' in an average school she'll be rightfully getting praised for her achievements and the teachers will concentrate on other kids to improve them before her to up their pass rate.

If she's the same intelligence but an average / above average kid in a class in a school with higher expectations across the board where her ability in 'the norm': the expectations fostered in her by her teachers and by her peers and by herself will be to 'work harder / better' and achieve higher.

If this goes on for the 5 years of secondary school she may well be achieving higher grades than being 'allowed to coast' at a middling school.

Higher GCSE grades allied to a more developed work ethic will open more doors at A level in terms of courses and institutions to study at for her A levels.

And another couple of years of that will probably open up better universities and more competitive courses.

There's a reason why Grammar schools and fee paying schools churn out dozens of kids every year going into (for example) medicine requiring A grades at GCSE and A level (in the case of RGS it can be closer to 50 or more per year) as a matter of normal expectation, yet a state school might get one or two and see that as exceptional achievement.

It's not that those kids are 'better' or 'brighter', it's that they remorselessly churn out well rounded, hard working young adults who expect to achieve or will work damn hard to ensure they don't 'fail'.

Grammar / fee paying school kids make up around 10% of school kids (I think?), but make up 90% of the kids getting high GCSE grades / A level grades and the intake of kids on very competitive degree courses, and 90% of higher paid jobs.

They're (in general) no brighter than kids at state schools, but the cumulative effect of years and years of stretching bright kids in the right environment means that 'cream doesn't always rise to the top, and when it does its the exception rather than the rule'.
 
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Keawyeds said:
There are schools which aren't faith based, however schools are still expected to perform an act of "collective worship".
Current law and government guidance discriminates in favour of religion in requiring daily acts of ‘collective worship’ in schools, and in favour of Christianity in requiring that for schools without a religious character, the majority of these acts of collective worship should be ‘of a broadly Christian character’.

And it's not fact that faith schools perform better.
humanism.org.uk

Faith schools do not perform better than other schools – Humanists UK sets record straight

Humanists UK has challenged new findings that faith schools perform academically better than other state and private schools, highlighting research which shows many religious schools socially select their pupils which is why they might seem to perform better. A report in the Sunday Times...
humanism.org.uk

The way I see it, schools are fair enough to teach children about faiths, but they should do the range. Faith, Athiest and Humanist and Agnostic.



Why? Because they're elitist moneypits. Yes students who go there will get more opportunities than those who go to state schools, but it's not to say they will get a better education.
I knew people who went to one who came out with next to no GCSEs. If I was paying for it and that was the result, I'd be livid. Then again there will be parents who will send their kids there and not be arsed about their results.
If that's the case, they're just funding the elitist system. An "Old Boys Network" which is out-dated.
I went to one, I believe because my parents thought I'd get more or better discipline there. That was far from the case. I came out with 10 GCSEs, but I was worried throughout because I knew my parents had paid for me to be there.
In my view, that's an unnecessary additional pressure on some kids too.
You want to look at the result of private education? Check out the Tory front bench. Oh and don't forget Mr Farridge.

The rest of your post is just flippant bullshit
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I did use the word "often" when saying faith schools perform better than other schools, obviously not always. You can use statistics all day long to argue the case but as this the post was choosing a secondary school in Sunderland, I will keep it on topic; top three schools in Sunderland, Whitburn (CofE), St Anthony's (Catholic) and St. Aidan's (Catholic) Best schools in Sunderland | School Guide all faith schools but it sounds like the humanists would have them closed or have them remove their Christian ethos so they confirm to their views.

There are elements of the humanists website that I think they have absolutely correct. An end to religious discrimination in school employment, 100% correct. A teaching role should be based on the ability to teach not on a teacher's religion. Other areas on that website are hyperbole (see what I did there), I always thought the humanists were a balanced, sort of non-religious alternative but from that website they appear to have a religious (how ironic) fervour almost vitriolic opinion about anyone who dares to be religious. The website is all about stopping or challenging and nothing about an alternative way of doing things other than removing any reference to religion in all schools and have "humanist" schools through the back door. They go on about religious discrimination but what about schools that have a sporting ethos, the ones pushing football or athletics, what next, parents kicking off as their children are not sporty and are being discriminated against.

I agree about the "Old Boy's Network" and the elitism of the government front bench but even if you closed down the likes of Eton and Harrow tomorrow do you not think the "posh" kids will still pop up down the line and stopping private education is not the answer. I know a child who is borderline SEN and his parents send him to a private school (guessing they made big sacrifices to do that) as the he copes better with the smaller class sizes and closer teacher relationships, so you would deny him that ? The answer is to have more state educated MPs in the same way women have increased in numbers and parliament is a reflection of society not just those who can afford a top education. I actually think massive pressure should be put on the top universities to accept more state educated kids based on exam results not on where you were educated Oxbridge 'over-recruits from eight schools' The problem is not with private education but with the universities only taking pupils from the "top" (usually private) schools and those graduates grabbing the top jobs and the circle continues.
 
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mackem35 said:
I did use the word "often" when saying faith schools perform better than other schools, obviously not always. You can use statistics all day long to argue the case but as this the post was choosing a secondary school in Sunderland, I will keep it on topic; top three schools in Sunderland, Whitburn (CofE), St Anthony's (Catholic) and St. Aidan's (Catholic) Best schools in Sunderland | School Guide all faith schools but it sounds like the humanists would have them closed or have them remove their Christian ethos so they confirm to their views.

There are elements of the humanists website that I think they have absolutely correct. An end to religious discrimination in school employment, 100% correct. A teaching role should be based on the ability to teach not on a teacher's religion. Other areas on that website are hyperbole (see what I did there), I always thought the humanists were a balanced, sort of non-religious alternative but from that website they appear to have a religious (how ironic) fervour almost vitriolic opinion about anyone who dares to be religious. The website is all about stopping or challenging and nothing about an alternative way of doing things other than removing any reference to religion in all schools and have "humanist" schools through the back door. They go on about religious discrimination but what about schools that have a sporting ethos, the ones pushing football or athletics, what next, parents kicking off as their children are not sporty and are being discriminated against.

I agree about the "Old Boy's Network" and the elitism of the government front bench but even if you closed down the likes of Eton and Harrow tomorrow do you not think the "posh" kids will still pop up down the line and stopping private education is not the answer. I know a child who is borderline SEN and his parents send him to a private school (guessing they made big sacrifices to do that) as the he copes better with the smaller class sizes and closer teacher relationships, so you would deny him that ? The answer is to have more state educated MPs in the same way women have increased in numbers and parliament is a reflection of society not just those who can afford a top education. I actually think massive pressure should be put on the top universities to accept more state educated kids based on exam results not on where you were educated Oxbridge 'over-recruits from eight schools' The problem is not with private education but with the universities only taking pupils from the "top" (usually private) schools and those graduates grabbing the top jobs and the circle continues.
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The thing I like about Humanism is being able to make moral conscious decisions based on what you know to be right and wrong without having some ethereal parental figure hovering over you. I must admit I've met a militant atheist before. They were as bad as the people they were decrying. A nice bit of Humanist advice from The Immortal Bard - Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none.

I'm glad we found some common ground. I agree it's not as simple as just "shut them all".
The entire "Old boys network" paragraph was spot on - although I must admit the only "smaller class size" that I saw when I was at school was when it got to GCSE level for certain subjects choices. Aside form that you're looking at high 20s/low 30s.

It's not an easy situation, and I suspect a lot depends on your experiences. I just find it repellent that for example to get into a certain primary school, you need to be seen to be going to church etc. That is pretty discriminatory in my view.
 
JAZZMANB said:
Indeed ,Seaburn is the jewel of the north apparently and Whitburn is mostly rough as owt .They don't just set their own standards otherwise Ofsted can't even start to assess .
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In the better schools there are higher expectations of achievement. It's more competitive and pupils do better academically. Whether they become better people is open to debate.
 
Gillythedilf said:
I know of 4 instances where I can comment on this ;

Personally I got my kids Christened as Catholic’s so I could send them to a better school that wasn’t mixed sexes .

An old mate of mine sends his boy to school out of town and goes to the trouble of moving house to make it easier to get him there .


Another good friend of mine sends his Boys to a private school as he thinks that will give them a better start in life .

Couple next door who have just moved in came from Cleadon to Sunderland so that they are in the catchment area for St Aidens and St Anthony’s .

You do whatever you thinks best at the time for your kids ,all 3 of us are probs wasting our times but you’ve got to try imo .



Saying that a mate of mine let his daughter go to Thornhill school as it’s the closest .I warned him that there is a good chance she will get in with a curtain closer going there and he laughed .
I was correct .
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Always baffles me when you remind me of this reason mind Adam mate. You have some funny ways at times. :lol:
DufraisFTM said:
What if they are attracted to the same sex?
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:lol:
 
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Fulwell76 said:
The Ofsted report on Monkwearmouth is pretty shocking and states that they are failing kids of all abilities. I would read it if you haven't already.

They replaced the failing headteacher with his assistant so wouldn't expect big changes.

I know of drug issues there from friends who have kids there and according to parent groups on Facebook there is a bullying epidemic which the school tend to deny or even side with the bullies.

St Anthony's was in the top 10% in the country in recent results (unbelievable for a school in Sunderland) and Monkwearmouth was in the bottom 20%. If you have girls it's a no brainer (or it was for us anyway).
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Although some will try and play it down, drugs are a major concern for all schools. Sadly coke is now a major issue with kids
 
Harry Angstrom said:
In the better schools there are higher expectations of achievement. It's more competitive and pupils do better academically. Whether they become better people is open to debate.
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Like you say you're dealt the hand you're given ,You can't turn people away .Only private can wittle that lot down to virtually no dumbos .All schools have the same targets and expectations to hit hence the bad reports
 
JAZZMANB said:
Like you say you're dealt the hand you're given ,You can't turn people away .Only private can wittle that lot down to virtually no dumbos .All schools have the same targets and expectations to hit hence the bad reports
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So you think it makes no difference as all schools have same targets and the classes are streamed? That is obviously not true.
 
Hank Scorpio said:
Although some will try and play it down, drugs are a major concern for all schools. Sadly coke is now a major issue with kids
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How the fuck do kids afford coke? Most adults can’t afford it. When they talk about drugs at school it’s mostly an eighth of tac in my experience.
 
Harry Angstrom said:
So you think it makes no difference as all schools have same targets and the classes are streamed? That is obviously not true.
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You said some schools have higher standards ,they don't .I haven't said the rest ,its fine margins .Bit like in business.Shops with multi sites .Same ethos ,some fly for a while some don't .It ebbs and flows and although its nice to stand and say "I did all that" its not really as simple as that
 
JAZZMANB said:
You said some schools have higher standards ,they don't .I haven't said the rest ,its fine margins .Bit like in business.Shops with multi sites .Same ethos ,some fly for a while some don't .It ebbs and flows and although its nice to stand and say "I did all that" its not really as simple as that
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The better schools expect more from their pupils. Thus the standard of work expected is higher. Or am I missing something?
 

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