The Bookkeeper of Auschwitz has died.

Do you realize this line was the (unsuccessful) defence of Adolf Eichmann, the actual on the ground organizer of the Holocaust itself, when he was on trial? He claimed he was not liable for any of it because he was merely following orders in a totalitarian system where he had no right to objection...

I think to some degree it is a valid argument.

It isn’t a valid argument if you are one of the architects of the system or have the means to get away from the situation though.

He never said he was trapped.

He admitted he was part of the process and that he thought it was the right thing to do.

Do you have a link to that as I do not recall seeing that in the linked article.
 


Military, paramilitary whatever. I'm not really that concerned with the minutiae of what exactly they were. They were not a criminal organisation when he joined.

Please don't gloss over the rest of the post, because of that small and fairly insignificant detail.
If you ever visit Berlin then the Topography of Terror will blow your mind. Otherwise I'm sure someone off here can recommend a canny book. Your understanding of who and what the SS were is severely lacking and you're embarrassing yourself by harping on about it.
 
I think it’s a can of worms worth exploring.

Are you a war criminal if you’re effectively trapped into commiting a war crime?

Was he trapped into doing it, or did him and many others join knowing exactly what the SS was. Like @Tadger has said a few times now maybe you should read up on the SS.
 
If you ever visit Berlin then the Topography of Terror will blow your mind. Otherwise I'm sure someone off here can recommend a canny book. Your understanding of who and what the SS were is severely lacking and you're embarrassing yourself by harping on about it.

Okay, noted that I have a gap in knowledge over the specifics of the SS.

Thanks for the pointers. Hopefully that post above has satisfied your ego as much as I think it has.

Was he trapped into doing it, or did him and many others join knowing exactly what the SS was. Like @Tadger has said a few times now maybe you should read up on the SS.

Yep, Tadger is right there’s a gap in my knowledge regarding the SS.

I won’t have my posts glossed over due to lacking knowledge on the specifics of the SS when that is just a small part of a bigger issue.
 
Do you have a link to that as I do not recall seeing that in the linked article.

In the BBC book and DVD set titled Auschwitz: The Nazis and 'The Final Solution', author Laurence Reesindicates that although Gröning had requested to leave Auschwitz after he witnessed the killing, his objection was only on the basis of its practical implementation, and not on the general militaristic principle of the mass extermination of enemies.[5]:139 Gröning said that he thought at the time that it was justified due to all the Nazi propaganda he had been subjected to, in that Germany's enemies were being destroyed,[5]:139 which to him made the tools of their destruction (such as gas chambers) of no particular significance.[6] Because of this, he said his feelings about seeing people and knowing that they had hours to live before being gassed were "very ambiguous".[5]:139 He explained that children were murdered because, while the children themselves were not the enemy, the danger was the blood within them, in that they could grow up to become dangerous Jews.[5]:139 Rees points to Gröning's ultra-nationalist upbringing as indication of how he was able to justify the extermination of helpless children.[5]:139 Gröning said that the horrors in the gas chambers did eventually dawn on him when he heard the screams.[7]

His life was classic indoctrination but still, f***ing hell.
 
Okay, noted that I have a gap in knowledge over the specifics of the SS.

Thanks for the pointers. Hopefully that post above has satisfied your ego as much as I think it has.



Yep, Tadger is right there’s a gap in my knowledge regarding the SS.

I won’t have my posts glossed over due to lacking knowledge on the specifics of the SS when that is just a small part of a bigger issue.
:lol: not sure what my ego has to do with it. You're arguing with people who know what they're talking about on a subject you dont. Save your own ego and read a book on it.

Your posts shouldn't be glossed over they should be ignored. I'm not sure why you're so insistent on ramming an opinion down others throats on a topic you have openly accepted you don't understand.
 
His life was classic indoctrination but still, f***ing hell.

I watched that documentary about a year before he was arrested and I remember hearing the name and I watched it again.

He was breathtakingly arrogant in parts of that interview, especially the part where he was challenged on the murder of the Jewish children.
 
Joining the SS required you to be an ideological Nazi who swore to deliver on Hitler's plan's to subjugate and destroy what were seen as inferior races. Specifically they recognised no international laws against brutality, atrocities or any of the Geneva convention. Execution of captured enemies and civilians was routine. It was very much not like regular army, and even less like a conscript army. He set out specifically to join the SS.

Exactly, the S.S was not a regular combat unit, but a fanatical ultra-racist cult.
 
That's certainly a mixed bag. Clearly someone who was subject to intense indoctrination but when the reality of what that culminated in dawned on him, appears to have had a significant change of heart.

Not sure how to feel about that.

I'm sure a lot of criminals feel regret but they still have to answer for it.

It's not even a case of people getting the pitchforks out, he was proved guilty.

I watched that documentary about a year before he was arrested and I remember hearing the name and I watched it again.

He was breathtakingly arrogant in parts of that interview, especially the part where he was challenged on the murder of the Jewish children.

There's a sickening coldness about him, especially the matter of fact way he spoke in court.
 
:lol: not sure what my ego has to do with it. You're arguing with people who know what they're talking about on a subject you dont. Save your own ego and read a book on it.

Your posts shouldn't be glossed over they should be ignored. I'm not sure why you're so insistent on ramming an opinion down others throats on a topic you have openly accepted you don't understand.

But I'm not really arguing over who or what the SS are though. I'm discussing whether or not what he did should be considered a war crime or whether this man was actually genocidal or just part of the machine.

I'm not insistent on ramming any opinion down anyone's throat. It's a discussion. I'm discussing. If you'd read the thread rather than jumped in, perhaps you'd have known that.

I'm sure a lot of criminals feel regret but they still have to answer for it.

It's not even a case of people getting the pitchforks out, he was proved guilty.



There's a sickening coldness about him, especially the matter of fact way he spoke in court.

He was indeed found guilty, yes.

I think this case is a little different from a typical person committing a crime though.
 
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But I'm not really arguing over who or what the SS are though. I'm discussing whether or not what he did should be considered a war crime.

I'm not insistent on ramming any opinion down anyone's throat. It's a discussion. I'm discussing. If you'd read the thread rather than jumped in, perhaps you'd have known that.
I've read the whole thread, you're doing what you do alot on here. Taking a stubborn stance based on a limited understanding of the facts.

Who and what the SS were and why people joined them is absolutely key to the discussion here. You jumped in with 2 feet on if he's a war criminal, or not because he was just a normal bloke who wanted a nice job in the SS without knowing what he was getting into.
 
I've read the whole thread, you're doing what you do alot on here. Taking a stubborn stance based on a limited understanding of the facts.

Who and what the SS were and why people joined them is absolutely key to the discussion here. You jumped in with 2 feet on if he's a war criminal, or not because he was just a normal bloke who wanted a nice job in the SS without knowing what he was getting into.

I'm not taking a stubborn stance at all. I am entirely open to having my opinion changed.

@Tadger, @MrOompapa and @Cockney Mackem have made pleasant and informed posts that have allowed me to better understand their position and between first reading and now, I feel like their knowledge can or could influence my opinion.

Whereas on the other hand, you just jumped in like a bellend. Nothing wrong with that, I've done it myself, but it doesn't make you any less of one.
 
But I'm not really arguing over who or what the SS are though. I'm discussing whether or not what he did should be considered a war crime or whether this man was actually genocidal or just part of the machine.

I'm not insistent on ramming any opinion down anyone's throat. It's a discussion. I'm discussing. If you'd read the thread rather than jumped in, perhaps you'd have known that.

But who and what the SS were is integral to the whole debate around Oskar Gröning, his arrest and his conviction.
 
Yes, I accept that the nature of the SS is more important to the discussion than I originally believed.

I understand the position you’re taking; it is important to take into account the individual, their motivations and circumstances in these kinds of cases.

In this particularly grim part of European history though, the sheer scale of the crimes committed by the Third Reich required a well oiled machine and practically everyone in that machine had to be pretty enthusiastic about the whole thing.
 
I understand the position you’re taking; it is important to take into account the individual, their motivations and circumstances in these kinds of cases.

In this particularly grim part of European history though, the sheer scale of the crimes committed by the Third Reich required a well oiled machine and practically everyone in that machine had to be pretty enthusiastic about the whole thing.

Yes, I think you're right. You don't join the SS without knowing its ethos. I mistakenly lumped it in with the rest of the army when you and others are quite right about what it is. Ah well. You live and learn!
 
Yes, I think you're right. You don't join the SS without knowing its ethos. I mistakenly lumped it in with the rest of the army when you and others are quite right about what it is. Ah well. You live and learn!

Everyday’s a school day and all that.
 

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