TK-421
Winger
There is sorrow indeed if civilians were the target
We didn't go to war to save the Jews you know
Would you say the Soviets were morally superior?
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Would you say the Soviets were morally superior?
Tadger
Striker
No, but it was obvious that Hitler was going to attempt to conquer Europe.
riffraff
Striker
Would you say the Nazis were morally superior?
Basil Fawlty was reet. THEY started it. End of discussion.
TK-421
Winger
Of course not. I'm just disputing the reasons for war, and then the conduct during it.
They may have 'started it' but a lot happened before the invasion of Poland.
Quite. I've just said above, a lot happened before it got to that stage. The British and French surrender of democratic Czechoslavia in the Munich conference was a disgrace.
Lankester Merrin
Striker
I love Le Carre. He is the quintessential English bloke writer. He is slow, but I like slow stuff. The 1980s BBC version of Smileys People is the slowest TV show ever, and better for it
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Deleted member 26022
Guest
when it comes to talking about the war, i think each generation has its own ideas of the rights and wrongs, its all fair enough people born after the events talking about it looking back, and of course we have different ideas, but when it comes down to it however wrong we may feel certain aspects of it were, we are looking back at it with 70+ years of thinking time, the generation that fought it, were of one aim, they were the enemy and they needed to be destroyed, and they were going to do whatever it took to do this, of course after the war it proved just how evil hitler and his gang of thugs really were and this was proven at the Nuremberg trials, where they got what was coming, however look back it it now, can we say that we would not do the same as them if called to do so.
exactly this - too many people make the mistake of judging the past using 21st Century ideals
Tex
Striker
Aye spot on.
There was an interesting debate on here once about how horrific the Atom Bomb was and how the yanks were wrong to use it. One response is that the very fact they had to do it twice should tell you the mindset of the Japanese. Also the saving of countless allied lives island hopping in the pacific fighting against suicidal nut jobs. Also the 'show of strength' needed to the Russkies that they wouldn't be able to press for world wide communism. But it all looks so naughty viewed from the 21sr century.
Another aftermath of the war was that since we went to war in 39/41 ostensibly against 'tyranny' then we're expected to do so now against every tyrant who pops up even when it's none of our business like in the Middle East. Also that gave the yanks the excuse to abandon their previous isolationist policies and set off to fill the void left by the collapse of the British empire by building their own. Broad strokes anar!
Dark Traveller
Striker
I have mentioned a few on other threads regarding "What If?" alternative fiction books, Harry Turtledove is a particular favourite read of mine. A couple of his recent (well in the last 10 years) have looked at german victory in Europe/world approach.
In The Presence Of Mine Enemies - set it 21st Century Berlin. Germany and its allies won the second world war, managed to develop nuclear weapons before America and the US surrendered after the destruction of Washington and Philadelphia. The main story is centred around a family who are secretly jewish, the father works in the Intelligence ministry and has managed to hide his family's heritage quite well.
The Man With the Iron Heart - Reinhard Heydrich survives an assassination attempt, and knowing the german advance is in decline and the allies are just days away from victory, goes deep into hiding. Heydrich and his followers adopt a insurgent approach, targeting key people and places. His supporters use car bombs, anti-tank rockets and suicide bombs to inflict as much damage to the occupying forces. This draws out what would have been the eventual return of troops to their homes and forces the American military to stay far longer than planned at the cost of large loss of life.
In The Presence Of Mine Enemies - set it 21st Century Berlin. Germany and its allies won the second world war, managed to develop nuclear weapons before America and the US surrendered after the destruction of Washington and Philadelphia. The main story is centred around a family who are secretly jewish, the father works in the Intelligence ministry and has managed to hide his family's heritage quite well.
The Man With the Iron Heart - Reinhard Heydrich survives an assassination attempt, and knowing the german advance is in decline and the allies are just days away from victory, goes deep into hiding. Heydrich and his followers adopt a insurgent approach, targeting key people and places. His supporters use car bombs, anti-tank rockets and suicide bombs to inflict as much damage to the occupying forces. This draws out what would have been the eventual return of troops to their homes and forces the American military to stay far longer than planned at the cost of large loss of life.
there are big problem with any alt-WW2 scenario
you have to try and keep the US out of it somehow (which is easier said than done even if you start with an isolationist US)
Germany will never be in a position to invade the UK
Germany starting to make rational decisions means you have a not-Hitler..but then the majority of his early successes were'nt what were seen as rational decisions
you have to try and keep the US out of it somehow (which is easier said than done even if you start with an isolationist US)
Germany will never be in a position to invade the UK
Germany starting to make rational decisions means you have a not-Hitler..but then the majority of his early successes were'nt what were seen as rational decisions
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Deleted member 30853
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Deleted member 26022
Guest
well that is because, maybe for some, that is all they can use to view the past with, its like viewing the first world war today some of us have no family connection to it, so see it as a series of events and nothing more, however with world war two, we have those family connections too it, grandparents etc who fought in it, so it can be viewed with different lenses of perceptive, its a lot easier to connect with something when you know people who were around at the time, then when you don't which is why the ideals some use are different, they can't put themselves in those peoples shoes
TK-421
Winger
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.in...ombs-in-underground-tunnels-a7035246.html?amp
Some fella claims he has found Hitler's nukes, as were interestingly mentioned previously in the thread, although it's not confirmed as true.
Some fella claims he has found Hitler's nukes, as were interestingly mentioned previously in the thread, although it's not confirmed as true.
Tadger
Striker
They went to war because of Operation Barbarossa. War between the Soviets and the Nazis was inevitable no matter what happened on the Western Front. Hitler despised the "Slavic" races.
Britain has been guilty of atrocities in it's history but let's not be so ridiculous as to put Britain during wartime on an equal moral footing with the Third Reich or Stalinist Russia.
Back on topic, I enjoyed the second episode. The plot is thickening.
TK-421
Winger
I agree. And I didn't think I did. I was just questioning this tactic. Unquestionably we held moral superiority over those two.
D
Deleted member 5265
Guest
With air superiority, yes. Air superiority would have meant that they could have destroyed the Royal Navy in the Channel, more or less unopposed.
We had no artillery. We'd left it all on the beaches of Dunkirk. We got 200,000 men back but had nothing for them to fight with.
Mercia Blackcat
Striker
I'm not so sure.
Although six destroyers were lost during the evacuation of Dunkirk in May 1940 this was due to them being stationary as they picked up troops.
Tackling capital ships would have been an even greater task because at the time the Luftwaffe, unlike the Japanese during the destruction of the fleet at Singapore, did not have armour-piercing bombs, the article says.
It has been argued that German minefields strung across the Dover Straits would have prevented the Home Fleet, based at Scapa Flow, from destroying slow troop barges.
But Dr Gordon disputed this saying that Britain had 52 minesweepers and 16 minesweeping trawlers arrayed against four German minelayers.
The disparity between the navies was huge with Britain having 36 destroyers close by and a similar number two days away. The Navy also had five capital ships on hand, whereas the Kriegsmarine had lost or had damaged their battleships..........
Prof Gary Sheffield, the JSCSC's leading land warfare historian, said while some Germans might have got ashore it would have been near impossible for them to be re-supplied with the Navy so close by.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1527068/Battle-of-Britain-was-won-at-sea.-Discuss.html
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I'd tend to agree with this.
The Royal Navy was probably the biggest reason for Great Britain's continuing existence during the early stages of the war. It was a fearsome force, even if some of it's ships were ageing and obsolete in comparison to more modern fleets, like those of Italy and Germany.
It never seems to get as much credit as the other armed forces with their more 'glamorous' episodes such as the Battle of Britain, victory at El Alamein, the Normandy invasion etc. Even the evacuation from Dunkirk seems not to get the credit it deserved, probably as it came about because of a massive defeat. It performed heroically though, along with the Merchant Navy, in keeping Great Britain afloat, as it were.
For heroic episodes, read up on HMS Jervis Bay, and the efforts made to ensure the SS Ohio made it to Malta.
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