‘Irrelevant and toxic’ Labour losing out to Ukip, inquiry finds

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UKIP's modus operandi is to leave the EU. Their main gripe with the EU is open door immigration. They adopt anti-immigration rhetoric to further their cause. As a result, their core support is made up of people who are anti-immigration.

It's hardly a controversial post.

You know exactly what you're saying though. 'Rhetoric' is often used as a pejorative term, and you're insinuating that a) being anti-immigration is a bad thing and b) that UKIP uses 'rhetoric' to win over voters
 


I've passed no comment on immigration, it's pluses or its downsides. I've simply said to win back voters from UKIP on the issue of immigration, they'd have to adopt a similar platform. I would hope the Labour Party would never do that.

I voted UKIP, I would like to vote labour.

To win back voters from UKIP labour would have to pledge to reduce immigration levels and actually mean it.

This is a policy that would get support from the majority of the country, including ethnic minority groups.
 
You keep confusing being anti immigration and anti-mass immigration and building a straw man argument as a result. The overwhelming majority of people in this country want to reduce immigration levels.

I haven't confused anything. You've got yourself wound up over an argument I haven't made.

For Labour to win back the voters who have gone over to UKIP they would be required to adopt an anti-immigrationist stance. It isn't going to happen and I hope it doesn't as isn't really a Labour principle.

Labour are predominantly pro-European. Only certain sections of the 'far left' of the party aren't (a side of the party you are against if I remember your previous posts correctly). Membership of the EU comes with freedom of movement across the continent. It would be nigh on impossible for Labour, a Remain party, to convince UKIP voters that they are both pro-Euroean and anti-immigration; mass or otherwise.
 
You know exactly what you're saying though. 'Rhetoric' is often used as a pejorative term, and you're insinuating that a) being anti-immigration is a bad thing and b) that UKIP uses 'rhetoric' to win over voters

I hadn't intended to insinuate a) and I categorically said b), no insinuation. UKIP do use rhetoric to win over voters, as do all parties. UKIP's happens to be anti-immigration rhetoric.
 
It's quite telling that they like to avoid it and there is a reason for that.

Because the bottom line is you need to be able to control the levels of immigration entering the country. That is the only way to make the issue less toxic, anything else bullshit.

I suppose someone could try and put a positive spin on mass, unfettered immigration but it would not win many friends among the British public.

That was intended for Randy BTW.
Cheers marra.

I don't think there are any cheerleaders for mass immigration, though I'm not sure what that means. If people's concerns are around employment and infrastructure that's fine. There should be ways to deal with that without pulling up the drawbridge. Dismissing concerns is a big mistake but perceptions are often out of kilter with reality, as with things like health tourism and benefit fraud.

The language has to change and that can only happen by engaging with people. Terms like economic migrant, asylum seekers, refugee etc are thrown around without people necessarily thinking about what they mean.

You know exactly what you're saying though. 'Rhetoric' is often used as a pejorative term, and you're insinuating that a) being anti-immigration is a bad thing and b) that UKIP uses 'rhetoric' to win over voters
Being anti immigration is nonsense unless you're going to refuse to be treated by a foreign doctor and never visit a takeaway.
 
Why would a debate on the numbers of people entering the country be dog whistle, anti migrant rhetoric?

Labour acknowledging that current levels of immigration are unsustainable without significant investment in public services, housing and infrastructure would be showing caution and a sensible approach to the issue.

It wouldn't be enough to win back UKIP voters. The wing of the Labour Party that lean towards that argument, I.e. the far left, have been labelled unelectable by at least one of the posters who are disagreeing with me on this point.

If people want a party that are openly against immigration, but are also wanting centre right policies on economics then the Labour Party is probably not the right place to look. Thats
 
I've passed no comment on immigration, it's pluses or its downsides. I've simply said to win back voters from UKIP on the issue of immigration, they'd have to adopt a similar platform. I would hope the Labour Party would never do that.

The Labour Party could have done what no other mainstream party has and told us the truth regarding mass immigration.

It does not need to be a nasty issue and brought down to a personal level.

Its simply a matter of controlling numbers rather than a free for all.

Mainstream parties such as Labour have offered nothing but incompetence and bullshit on the issue which has left a void filled by minority parties.
 
Labour acknowledging that current levels of immigration are unsustainable without significant investment in public services, housing and infrastructure would be showing caution and a sensible approach to the issue.

It wouldn't be enough to win back UKIP voters. The wing of the Labour Party that lean towards that argument, I.e. the far left, have been labelled unelectable by at least one of the posters who are disagreeing with me on this point.

If people want a party that are openly against immigration, but are also wanting centre right policies on economics then the Labour Party is probably not the right place to look. Thats
If all that is true then they are fucked.

Being anti immigration is nonsense unless you're going to refuse to be treated by a foreign doctor and never visit a takeaway.
Why? Surely you can think current policy is utter madness without giving up your peshwari naan. It would be preferable to train out own health professionals as well.
 
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Being anti immigration is nonsense unless you're going to refuse to be treated by a foreign doctor and never visit a takeaway.

Being anti-immigration for me isn't about being anti-foreigners or anti-foreign people working here.

I just don't want hordes of young, unskilled eastern europeans coming here and either competing for unskilled work (as if our unskilled workers don't have it hard already) or applying for benefits

If you're from another country and can't afford to live here the only thing the British government should be giving you is a one way ticket back to where you came from*

*refugees, etc excepted of course
 
If all that is true then they are fucked.


Why? Surely you can think current policy is utter madness without giving up your peshwari naan. It would be preferable to train out own health professionals as well.

Labour are knackered for the foreseeable future. Scotland is lost. Losing a relatively small number of voters to UKIP is one of their smallest issues.
 
I voted UKIP, I would like to vote labour.

To win back voters from UKIP labour would have to pledge to reduce immigration levels and actually mean it.

This is a policy that would get support from the majority of the country, including ethnic minority groups.

Forgive me if I'm wrong but aren't you pro-New Labour? They were unapologetically pro-European. The current Labour Party are pro-European. That stance means they can't be anti-immigration or migration or whatever you want to label it.

If you want a party that are anti-immigration that have a similar economic policy as New Labour then just vote Tory or UKIP. Half of the Tory party are of a similar mindset. There's no point in hoping a party completely change their whole philosophy to suit your views when there's a couple of parties that already do.
 
I genuinely don't understand that attitude. My views are extremely moderate and naturally left leaning, yet you would rather I voted UKIP than address an issue that the majority of the country are concerned with?
There are other issues yet you prioritise this one . Vote ukip so do they , labour will not pay your price
 
I genuinely don't understand that attitude. My views are extremely moderate and naturally left leaning, yet you would rather I voted UKIP than address an issue that the majority of the country are concerned with?

You want the Labour Party to be anti-mass immigration and have New Labour economic policies. That would make it a centre-right party. The current Tory government have largely adopted liberal social policies (gay marriage being the main one).

It honestly sounds like they represent your views. Forget about traditional loyalties, or family voting patterns or whatever other reason it is you want to vote Labour, they won't and are unlikely to ever offer you what you want them to.
 
Being anti-immigration for me isn't about being anti-foreigners or anti-foreign people working here.

I just don't want hordes of young, unskilled eastern europeans coming here and either competing for unskilled work (as if our unskilled workers don't have it hard already) or applying for benefits

If you're from another country and can't afford to live here the only thing the British government should be giving you is a one way ticket back to where you came from*

*refugees, etc excepted of course
Why is it only unskilled eastern Europeans you are worried about? What about unskilled French people or Spanish people?

Here's something you should probably look at, the unskilled British people here in our own country, where there are large amounts of people who just want to do fuck all all day/not get a job, watch Jeremy Kyle and live an easy life. Fuck those people. Every immigrant I have known within this country, especially from eastern Europe, has held a job down and been hard working at that.

I'd much rather kick out the lazy Brits that contribute nothing towards this country than stop people that are prepared to work from outside coming in.
 
Could easily form a government with the help of the snp. They are fucked because they offer white van man nothing.

What does white van man want though?

Labour lost Scotland and didn't win back middle England at the last election. They may have lost a section of votes to UKIP, so too did the Tories, but that isn't what cost them the election.

If Labour offers up anti-immigration policies to woo back UKIP voters and austerity to woo back middle England they'll lose even more support from the core Labour vote
 
What does white van man want though?

Labour lost Scotland and didn't win back middle England at the last election. They may have lost a section of votes to UKIP, so too did the Tories, but that isn't what cost them the election.

If Labour offers up anti-immigration policies to woo back UKIP voters and austerity to woo back middle England they'll lose even more support from the core Labour vote
White can man wants very simple things. A secure well paid job. Am affordable house and things not to change that much. Imho.

What core labour vote backs unlimited movement of people around Europe?
 
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