The Bruce debate

northumberlandmackem · 24th November 2011, 08:45 AM

Not normally a poster, but I read the board regularly and enjoy (most of) the debate.

The most device topic on PF is of course our manager. I thought I'd have my say as although many excellent points have been raised for and against Bruce, the thing that gets me about him is the 'enjoyment factor'.

Don't get me wrong, i'm not a 'Bruce out' man. Sacking him would be reckless and a huge gamble. Manager changes rarely work throughout a season, and though there are exceptions to that rule, sides who change their managers often fail to better their position in the League with their new manager. That's not to say I like Bruce, but he should be given to the end of the season at least......there's no way we'll be relegated!

However the thing that riles me most is Bruce's constant 'look at the stats, we've improved year on year and the club achieved it's 3rd highest finish in 50 years'.

I didn't enjoy last season. I'd go as far to say it was one of the least enjoyable supporting Sunderland. I don't quite know why, we've had/seen far worse on the pitch, bur when we were shit/going down, we were no where near good enough and it was easy to take. BUt the derby debacle, the long long INEVITABLE streak of injuries, the INEVITABLE winnless streak, the excuses, the lack of effort shown in certain games. There were high points, but as far as I'm concerned, I thought long and hard about renewing last season, but I did in the hope things would get better.

Bruce clearly sees last season as a runnaway success. It didn't feel like that at the time. And this is my major gripe with the man. Football is a game of ups and downs, but if we are to be over the moon with last season then it makes me want to stop travelling to games.

This season has shown much more of the same. If we beat Wigan, which I'm very confident we will-they are shocking-we could go tenth and Bruce will once again probably accuse the fans of hysterics for our poor start. We've been mostly shocking this season with the exceptions of the Stoke, Bolton, Liverpool and Arsenal games.......but it'll be seeped under the table if we go tenth, just like last season was swept under the table because we played a relegated West Ham side and results went our way on the final day.

We are sunderland. Our history dictates we have a right to be better than Stoke, Bolton, Fulham, Wigan, Blackburn, Swansea, Norwich, QPR, Wolves, at least.

BUt I expect, with the investment in the club has had, the support, the infrastructure the club has, the youth development we have, the PLAYERS we have; to expect better, not to be told we expect to much.

This is why Bruce will never succeed at Sunderland, nor do I want him to.

Anth9ftm · 24th November 2011, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by northumberlandmackem

Not normally a poster, but I read the board regularly and enjoy (most of) the debate.

The most device topic on PF is of course our manager. I thought I'd have my say as although many excellent points have been raised for and against Bruce, the thing that gets me about him is the 'enjoyment factor'.

Don't get me wrong, i'm not a 'Bruce out' man. Sacking him would be reckless and a huge gamble. Manager changes rarely work throughout a season, and though there are exceptions to that rule, sides who change their managers often fail to better their position in the League with their new manager. That's not to say I like Bruce, but he should be given to the end of the season at least......there's no way we'll be relegated!

However the thing that riles me most is Bruce's constant 'look at the stats, we've improved year on year and the club achieved it's 3rd highest finish in 50 years'.

I didn't enjoy last season. I'd go as far to say it was one of the least enjoyable supporting Sunderland. I don't quite know why, we've had/seen far worse on the pitch, bur when we were shit/going down, we were no where near good enough and it was easy to take. BUt the derby debacle, the long long INEVITABLE streak of injuries, the INEVITABLE winnless streak, the excuses, the lack of effort shown in certain games. There were high points, but as far as I'm concerned, I thought long and hard about renewing last season, but I did in the hope things would get better.

Bruce clearly sees last season as a runnaway success. It didn't feel like that at the time. And this is my major gripe with the man. Football is a game of ups and downs, but if we are to be over the moon with last season then it makes me want to stop travelling to games.

This season has shown much more of the same. If we beat Wigan, which I'm very confident we will-they are shocking-we could go tenth and Bruce will once again probably accuse the fans of hysterics for our poor start. We've been mostly shocking this season with the exceptions of the Stoke, Bolton, Liverpool and Arsenal games.......but it'll be seeped under the table if we go tenth, just like last season was swept under the table because we played a relegated West Ham side and results went our way on the final day.

We are sunderland. Our history dictates we have a right to be better than Stoke, Bolton, Fulham, Wigan, Blackburn, Swansea, Norwich, QPR, Wolves, at least.

BUt I expect, with the investment in the club has had, the support, the infrastructure the club has, the youth development we have, the PLAYERS we have; to expect better, not to be told we expect to much.

This is why Bruce will never succeed at Sunderland, nor do I want him to.

This is what is annoying, it comes accross as he feels hes brought success and its us that isnt grateful.

ned_werby · 24th November 2011, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by northumberlandmackem

Not normally a poster, but I read the board regularly and enjoy (most of) the debate.

The most device topic on PF is of course our manager. I thought I'd have my say as although many excellent points have been raised for and against Bruce, the thing that gets me about him is the 'enjoyment factor'.

Don't get me wrong, i'm not a 'Bruce out' man. Sacking him would be reckless and a huge gamble. Manager changes rarely work throughout a season, and though there are exceptions to that rule, sides who change their managers often fail to better their position in the League with their new manager. That's not to say I like Bruce, but he should be given to the end of the season at least......there's no way we'll be relegated!

However the thing that riles me most is Bruce's constant 'look at the stats, we've improved year on year and the club achieved it's 3rd highest finish in 50 years'.

I didn't enjoy last season. I'd go as far to say it was one of the least enjoyable supporting Sunderland. I don't quite know why, we've had/seen far worse on the pitch, bur when we were shit/going down, we were no where near good enough and it was easy to take. BUt the derby debacle, the long long INEVITABLE streak of injuries, the INEVITABLE winnless streak, the excuses, the lack of effort shown in certain games. There were high points, but as far as I'm concerned, I thought long and hard about renewing last season, but I did in the hope things would get better.

Bruce clearly sees last season as a runnaway success. It didn't feel like that at the time. And this is my major gripe with the man. Football is a game of ups and downs, but if we are to be over the moon with last season then it makes me want to stop travelling to games.

This season has shown much more of the same. If we beat Wigan, which I'm very confident we will-they are shocking-we could go tenth and Bruce will once again probably accuse the fans of hysterics for our poor start. We've been mostly shocking this season with the exceptions of the Stoke, Bolton, Liverpool and Arsenal games.......but it'll be seeped under the table if we go tenth, just like last season was swept under the table because we played a relegated West Ham side and results went our way on the final day.

We are sunderland. Our history dictates we have a right to be better than Stoke, Bolton, Fulham, Wigan, Blackburn, Swansea, Norwich, QPR, Wolves, at least.

BUt I expect, with the investment in the club has had, the support, the infrastructure the club has, the youth development we have, the PLAYERS we have; to expect better, not to be told we expect to much.

This is why Bruce will never succeed at Sunderland, nor do I want him to.

Ah, you see, you were doing okay up until then.

Sorry, but we have no right to be better than ANY team and anyone who thinks we do is either a deluded fuckwit or blinded by their own prejudices in this debate.

3/10. Have another go.

Freddie the Greek · 24th November 2011, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ned_werby

Ah, you see, you were doing okay up until then.

Sorry, but we have no right to be better than ANY team and anyone who thinks we do is either a deluded fuckwit or blinded by their own prejudices in this debate.

3/10. Have another go.

Agree, its almost a Mag sounding viewpoint. We've got no right to finish above anyone

Anth9ftm · 24th November 2011, 09:19 AM

agree, especially as one of them teams has a premiership title

Dexter · 24th November 2011, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by northumberlandmackem

This is why Bruce will never succeed at Sunderland, nor do I want him to.

Pathetic.

Freddie the Greek · 24th November 2011, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by northumberlandmackem

Not normally a poster, but I read the board regularly and enjoy (most of) the debate.

The most device topic on PF is of course our manager. I thought I'd have my say as although many excellent points have been raised for and against Bruce, the thing that gets me about him is the 'enjoyment factor'.

Don't get me wrong, i'm not a 'Bruce out' man. Sacking him would be reckless and a huge gamble. Manager changes rarely work throughout a season, and though there are exceptions to that rule, sides who change their managers often fail to better their position in the League with their new manager. That's not to say I like Bruce, but he should be given to the end of the season at least......there's no way we'll be relegated!

However the thing that riles me most is Bruce's constant 'look at the stats, we've improved year on year and the club achieved it's 3rd highest finish in 50 years'.

I didn't enjoy last season. I'd go as far to say it was one of the least enjoyable supporting Sunderland. I don't quite know why, we've had/seen far worse on the pitch, bur when we were shit/going down, we were no where near good enough and it was easy to take. BUt the derby debacle, the long long INEVITABLE streak of injuries, the INEVITABLE winnless streak, the excuses, the lack of effort shown in certain games. There were high points, but as far as I'm concerned, I thought long and hard about renewing last season, but I did in the hope things would get better.

Bruce clearly sees last season as a runnaway success. It didn't feel like that at the time. And this is my major gripe with the man. Football is a game of ups and downs, but if we are to be over the moon with last season then it makes me want to stop travelling to games.

This season has shown much more of the same. If we beat Wigan, which I'm very confident we will-they are shocking-we could go tenth and Bruce will once again probably accuse the fans of hysterics for our poor start. We've been mostly shocking this season with the exceptions of the Stoke, Bolton, Liverpool and Arsenal games.......but it'll be seeped under the table if we go tenth, just like last season was swept under the table because we played a relegated West Ham side and results went our way on the final day.

We are sunderland. Our history dictates we have a right to be better than Stoke, Bolton, Fulham, Wigan, Blackburn, Swansea, Norwich, QPR, Wolves, at least.

BUt I expect, with the investment in the club has had, the support, the infrastructure the club has, the youth development we have, the PLAYERS we have; to expect better, not to be told we expect to much.

This is why Bruce will never succeed at Sunderland, nor do I want him to.

The last line as well. You don't want Bruce to do well? I couldn't give 2 fucks who the Manager is, as long as they succeed

lenshack · 24th November 2011, 09:36 AM

I agree with much of what you say N.Mackem,but can't get my head around the logic of you wanting Bruce to stay till the end of the season when you obviously want to see the back of him.

Unless a miracle occurs the enthusiasim of the fans is continuing to wane all the time he's in charge, doing increasing long term damage as we hear many of them on here saying that they just don't care anymore.

If the inevitable is going to happen, surely it's better that it happens now and a fresh spirit returns to the club as a whole rather than let things deteriorate any further.

Even if a miracle does occur under Bruce and we achieve respectability,I can't see him ever having the full backing or confidence of the majority of fans ever again and not only due to the drab performances and style of play on the pitch.

I doubt if the way he's treated the fans with virtual contempt in the forlorn hope of covering up his own backside will ever be forgotten, regardless of what comes next.

Locke's SAFC · 24th November 2011, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by northumberlandmackem

We are sunderland. Our history dictates we have a right to be better than Stoke, Bolton, Fulham, Wigan, Blackburn, Swansea, Norwich, QPR, Wolves, at least.

No it doesn't.

You have to earn it, mate.

The last thing we need is sacking managers because the fans think: "we are Sunderland".

We need decisions based on the club's capabilities - both financial and team building.

I'm not a fan of sacking managers during a building period. He's brought some good players to the club and we didn't do badly last season. Look at the big picture rather than a poor start to the season.

Unless we find someone who can turn water into wine then the 'divine right' aspirations aren't going to materialise.

Give it time. Less haste more speed and all that.

andymcnish · 24th November 2011, 01:59 PM

Wait, wot?

So if he keeps churning enough players in and out each Summer (so he's continually in a 'rebuilding' period) he should never get the boot?

Whilst he is a decent wheeler/dealer for individual players he has shown that he hasn't a clue how to build a team, set up a team tactically, or make tactical decisions during a game.

It's almost a calendar year now of dreadful, insipid and uninspiring football, with poor decision after poor decision from Bruce.

Get rid...