Junior Doctors 'In it Together' with other Public Sector Staff

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10 Gary Rowells said:
Based on your brief explanation I think I would tend think I'd wholeheartedly support you if your benefits were eroded. However, with the Doctors a problem I have is that every single reform of their contracts, structure proposed by any government has led to Doctor's outrage. Under Blair the BMA criticised the Government for ending up paying them too much. Wrongly or rightly Doctors come across as people who were top of the class, gone to the best universities and (rightly) are in a well paid profession - no one can them how to do their job.

I understand that it was a report that suggested that the lack of 7 day working contributes to 11,000 extra deaths per annum. This led the NHS to say they would need £8 Bn to fund such work, which the Government came up (half now, half later). When I asked a Doctor he said 'we already cover 7 days' -well if it is then 11,000 extra deaths suggest not effectively. There is a presumption on here that anything the Government says is untrue or a lie - so when they say very few Doctors will be negatively effected financially then people on here say that's just lies. I am very far from a Government apologist and have never voted Tory but look at the BMA's standard response which is 'you know nothing about what we do' to any Government initiative and I lost sympathy with Doctors a while ago. I know it doesn't help that Jeremy Hunt is a very unimpressive politician but I'm not sure the Tories are all wrong on this one.
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The report states not that there are 11000 extra deaths at the weekend, but that if you are admitted at the weekend, you have a have a greater chance of dying within the next 30 days than if you were admitted on a weekday. Those who go to hospital on a weekend may tend to be more ill than those who choose to wait till the Monday to be admitted for example.

You are actually more likely to die in hospital if you are staying in on a Wednesday than you are if you are staying in on a Saturday or a Sunday.

http://www.nhs.uk/news/2012/02February/Pages/weekend-hospital-death-risk.aspx
 
Chizno1 said:
The report states not that there are 11000 extra deaths at the weekend, but that if you are admitted at the weekend, you have a have a greater chance of dying within the next 30 days than if you were admitted on a weekday. It also discounts the fact that admissions on a weekday can also be for routine, scheduled operations, whilst the chances of being admitted during the weekend for a routine op are nowhere near as high. Those who go to hospital on a weekend may also tend to be more ill than those who choose to wait till the Monday to be admitted for example.

You are actually more likely to die in hospital if you are staying in on a Wednesday than you are if you are staying in on a Saturday or a Sunday.

http://www.nhs.uk/news/2012/02February/Pages/weekend-hospital-death-risk.aspx
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Do you think we need 7 day working in the NHS (discounting cost - should it be an aim in your view).
 
tiptoad said:
The NHS is in safe hands with the Conservatives. If only we had a few more professional and conscientious doctors like George Osborne's brother, who's also in the news today:

George Osborne's brother struck off after affair with vulnerable patient
The Guardian
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Cushy job in some high-paying parliamentary office role to follow.
 
10 Gary Rowells said:
Do you think we need 7 day working in the NHS (discounting cost - should it be an aim in your view).
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We already have a 7 day working NHS, the junior doctors already provide weekend cover. There is a 7 day NHS already. It is being stretched to breaking point, but if you are ill enough to need hospital treatment on a weekend, you will be treated on a weekend, or through the night, 7 days a week, 24 hours per day.
 
Chizno1 said:
We already have a 7 day working NHS, the junior doctors already provide weekend cover. There is a 7 day NHS already. It is being stretched to breaking point, but if you are ill enough to need hospital treatment on a weekend, you will be treated on a weekend, or through the night, 7 days a week, 24 hours per day.
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Exactly!
 
Mb_2008 said:
Ha ha the hipprocratic oath isn't it just something you learn in uni then never use again
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I

May I always act so as to preserve the finest traditions of my calling and may I long experience the joy of healing those who seek my help whilst being fucked up the arse off my çunt of a government......
 
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HellsBells said:
We need to recognise that it's not just about paying people more for unsociable hours, it's about making the same finite resource work longer hours, regardless of what they're getting paid for those hours. This isn't about making more doctors available. The same number of doctors that work 5 days will be stretching over 7.

Doctors will end up working more hours, be more tired. And they will be making decisions about our lives. Life and death decisions.
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Just to play Devil's advocate for a minute, if the pay demands were met, would the longer working hours issue...become less of an issue?

Money talks after all.
 
Tadger said:
Just to play Devil's advocate for a minute, if the pay demands were met, would the longer working hours issue...become less of an issue?

Money talks after all.
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but if you believe the government they aren't losing money. This is a strike is not about money and if it was i personally wouldn't have a problem with it. I don't think Junior Doctors, for the responsibility aren't paid enough.
 
danbob said:
How can any employer expect a worker to exceed their maximum, at the very best its against terms and conditions, at the worst its illegal? If that happens, I will fully support the junior doctors in a grievance, and support their right to refuse to work overtime, but for all the arguments that have been put forward, this boils down to money, the hours argument does not, and can not add up if the maximum has been reduced.
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i agree and of course those JDs asked who expected to work 30% extra would say that wouldnt they i assume they are against the new contract - i bet they dont end up working 30% extra
 
Mallard said:
but if you believe the government they aren't losing money. This is a strike is not about money and if it was i personally wouldn't have a problem with it. I don't think Junior Doctors, for the responsibility aren't paid enough.
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you could apply that arguement to Cameron but i bet you wont - for what he does and the sheer level of responsibility he gets less than many middle managers in the NHS or even the Beeb!
 
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