If Allah did not exist

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I'm convinced theistic religion coincided with the foundation of early settlements, so its origins are social rather than in response to the aspirations of individuals, which pre-dates it.
 
ReidysLeftLug said:
I'm not following you, who has said to remove 'Christian ethics', how do you do that? If people's ethics are shaped by practicing a religion or ethics are tied to a religion then how do we get them without, is it the case that ethics and morals are something that can be derived without religion?
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With a hypothetical magic wand?

I am saying atheists in the West are influenced by the culture they are brought up in, that culture has been influenced by Christianity.
 
Mercia Blackcat said:
I'm convinced theistic religion coincided with the foundation of early settlements, so its origins are social rather than in response to the aspirations of individuals, which pre-dates it.
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The transfer of rigour in exact adherence demanded by theistic religions would almost certainly depend on writing which only arose post settlements ( to record and administer ) . The writing was in the hands of the powerful, so therefore was the belief and rules . The God was then the panopticon .
 
Skandhaless said:
The transfer of rigour in exact adherence demanded by theistic religions would almost certainly depend on writing which only arose post settlements ( to record and administer ) . The writing was in the hands of the powerful, so therefore was the belief and rules . The God was then the panopticon .
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That is true and writing ensured conformity. The first of the Vedas, Rigveda, is dominated with references to the Indo European gods of Indra (the warrior) and Agni (the messenger) who had blessed mankind with soma. Whole rites and rituals were defined for the drinking of soma. As the Vedas are developed, Brahman (universal spirit) comes to the fore along with Vishnu and Shiva who had been minor Indo European deities. In dualistic opposite to Brahman was Atman, the individual spirit. The Rigveda also refers back to the Battle of the Ten Kings when various Indo European and the remaining Indus Valley tribes fought for supremacy. There had clearly been a political influence at work in those first scriptures, although both Jains and Brahmins continued to dominate the elite which was mainly Indo Europeans who had assimilated, until after the time of Krishna a thousand years later.

So is theism effectively a philosophical virus that spread from Malaysia (Brahmins) to the Indus Valley (Hindus) and on through Iran (Zoroastrians) to Canaan (Elohists) and eventually Judea (Yahwists) that gave birth to Christianity and Islam. It behaves a bit like the flu virus and just keeps mutating into ever more virulent forms.

Theism is a form of dualism (Brahman and Atman, God and Soul) that is archaic, and even in India was philosophically superseded 1,200 years ago through Adi Shankara who articulated Advaita Vedanta (non dualistic Brahmanism). We don't need theism.
 
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Mercia Blackcat said:
You tell me, you're the one who asked the question and proposed emotional intelligence as an example.

So how does that work and why would it be different to the example I proposed of cognitive understanding?
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You said intelligence is purely measured by cognition which seems a bit narrow to me especially given your normal."spiritual " slant on things. I don't have a definitive description of intelligence.

Ilios said:
Which has nothing to do with belief in an all powerful supervising entity. Read it more carefully.
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I did I believe you have a very narrow view of religon if you think it has to have a single all powerful supervisor. What is your definition of religion?
 
Mercia Blackcat said:
I'm convinced theistic religion coincided with the foundation of early settlements, so its origins are social rather than in response to the aspirations of individuals, which pre-dates it.
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That is pretty much the main point Diamond is making in his book I think. As societis of chief dome arose they needed to codify rules externilising the rules to a god ( even if that God was the chief) made that easier. But bands and tribes have religion that perform.2 functions explaining nature and comfort from uncertainty.
 
the flying graysons said:
You said intelligence is purely measured by cognition which seems a bit narrow to me especially given your normal."spiritual " slant on things. I don't have a definitive description of intelligence.
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I was responding to your question as to what was intelligence:

Surely the highest form of intelligence is pure cognitive understanding without any cognitive dissonance. Without that, all other intelligence is meaningless and nothing more than surface froth.

I accept that there are several aspects of intelligence so it was in that context.
 
the flying graysons said:
You said intelligence is purely measured by cognition which seems a bit narrow to me especially given your normal."spiritual " slant on things. I don't have a definitive description of intelligence.


I did I believe you have a very narrow view of religon if you think it has to have a single all powerful supervisor. What is your definition of religion?
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1st of all, I said the Piraha 'had no god concept', which you equivocated to an attempted refutation by showing a cultural practice to ward off spirits - which i then corrected you on, in that it is irrelevant to a specific 'god' belief. Whichever way you feel you need to redefine 'religion' to fit what you want, fine. I use the historical, dictionary definition of religion; if yours is different, specify and qualify it...
 
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the flying graysons said:
That is pretty much the main point Diamond is making in his book I think. As societis of chief dome arose they needed to codify rules externilising the rules to a god ( even if that God was the chief) made that easier. But bands and tribes have religion that perform.2 functions explaining nature and comfort from uncertainty.
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I agree about tribal religions which in the case of the Aryans (Indo Europeans) centred around Indra the supreme warrior god of storms and battle. Another was Agni the god of lightening and fire known as the messenger. As nomadic people they drank soma around bonfires but when they became more permanently settled, the altar fire replaced the bonfire and with the advent of writing the old gods of nature were superseded by the all powerful creator god who had manifested in human form as a Son of Brahma. This is really ancient stuff but it bears remarkable similarity to the concept of the Christ as the Son of God. Maybe the concepts are not passed on but perhaps there is something common in our psyche that constructs archetypes.

I suppose that if take the dualistic theistic construct of God and Soul, then it will not be long before we construct the concept of a bridge in the form of the god incarnate as a messenger between the two.
 
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Harry Angstrom said:
With a hypothetical magic wand?

I am saying atheists in the West are influenced by the culture they are brought up in, that culture has been influenced by Christianity.
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I don't think anyone was disputing that. As Christianity's influence over our society and our culture has lessened, has there been a moral upheaval, are people better or worse? Therefore does society require religion to function, I'd say it doesn't and that we have found a way of socializing people and bringing concepts to our future generations without the need to threaten them that a sky fairy may smite them down if they do not do as we say. I would say that primary and secondary education have taken that role, where it wasn't/isn't catered for religion did the job of bringing future generations into society. If a country has a decent foundation, such as ours, and has a decent standard of primary and secondary education, such as ours, I would argue that religion isn't required at all and that it only serves to further divide people.
 
Ilios said:
1st of all, I said the Piraha 'had no god concept', which you equivocated to an attempted refutation by showing a cultural practice to ward off spirits - which i then corrected you on, in that it is irrelevant to a specific 'god' belief. Whichever way you feel you need to redefine 'religion' to fit what you want, fine. I use the historical, dictionary definition of religion; if yours is different, specify and qualify it...
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And what is that definition?
 
the flying graysons said:
Not to a thread on the definition of religon it's not ?
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What does the definition of religion have to do with the initiation of this thread?
'If Allah did not exist' (he doesn't)
He would have to be invented.. (he was)

Do you think society could cope with no religion? (it already does, in most of Europe, in the most part of life)

What would quarrelling over the actual definition of religion (a well defined term already) provide relative to the above thread that you created? How would that change anything I've said?
I've already said I use the only definition of religion that exists, if you have a different one, specify it, qualify it, and explain what relevance or usefulness that has...
 
the flying graysons said:
So why does it exist in every human society if it is so bad ?
Also those definitions would apply to communism and safc tbf
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A combination of ignorance of the natural world and the need to keep the downtrodden from going apeshit.

People are more inclined to put up with having shit lives if they think the next one will be all hunky dory.
 
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