Battle of the Somme

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You've been watching too much Blackadder mate.

"a war is unavoidable and the sooner the better" Moltke

Here is part of the belligerence I was referring too. Too much pomposity and pig headedness amongst all of the powers. So much greed and lust for power, influence and colonies. Britain wanted to remain to top power, Germany wanted a piece of what Britain had, France was smarting over 1870 and its loss of Alscace Lorraine, Austo Hungarian Empire was losing its influence and was desperately clinging on, the Balkans was an absolute powder keg and Russia had its own agenda. It was a toxic and lethal mix and combined with the alliances dragged everyone into a desperate war.

All of the powers were to blame to a certain extent although none could at that time see what was going to happen.

Once the ball had started rolling, no one would stop it. No one wanted to lose face and be damned with the millions of casualties. Nothing to do with Blackadder, everything to do with politicians and their belligerence.

Revisionist bilge. Herbert Asquith's son was killed on the Somme.

WW1 was a culmination of 50 years of Prussian militarism and an obsession with their right to a 'place in the sun'.

It doesn`t alter the fact that it was the stubbornness on all sides that was a partial cause of the war and caused it to drag on for 4 years. Asquith`s son`s death does not change that in any way. Maybe if diplomatic channels had been explored more thoroughly maybe, just maybe a war could have been avoided but then again maybe not as it seems as though too many parties actually wanted a war.
 
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They were ordered to walk slowly with rifles pointed forward, no bullets allowed "in the spout" only bayonets.

The Generals assumed that the sight of the British Army walking toward the German lines, with the morning sun glinting of the steel of the bayonets would be enough to scare them into retreat.

f***ing idiots.

No, they didn't.

The planned British attack was scheduled for a couple of months later.

They simply weren't ready but had to draw German units away from Verdun.

That was the underlying problem. Not ready. Because of this the plan was chopped and changed, and to be frank the generals didn't place a lot of faith in Kitchener's new army due to lack of training, and this influenced the whole battle plan.
 
I say that because 500,000 men is a hell of a lot of lives to lose on frontal assaults against heavily defended positions. I know tunnelling, tanks and aerial reconnaissance and other innovations came but surely there must have been other ways to relieve the pressure on Verdun than months of slogging it out and half a million deaths. I understand that it was the allied initiative to drive the Germans out but at what point do you stop sending men out to an almost certain death???

I doubt they thought of them as men, more like chess pieces or cattle/cannon fodder.
Disposable and replaceable items that they can push around on a map.
Rich idiots, ordering slightly less rich idiots to order less rich idiots to order men to their deaths (at gun point if need be).
If they survived, they would get limited medical help for physical problems but be left to rot mentally, if not shot for cowardice if they went mental whilst still in service.

We owe everything to those who fought and those who worked to keep our country free

Free from dictators, free from corruption... Shame their valour and bravery and sacrifice has been lost on politicians.

Sorry mate to tell you this and spoil your misconception. If they hadn't "advanced for King and Country" their own commanders would have shot them for cowardice. :(:(:evil::evil:

Edit: I see on reading the rest of the thread that this has been already said, but needs to be hammered home.

Many would have not needed the threat of execution on the spot if they didn't advance, as they had been brainwashed with propaganda, king and country and all that.
Tell a lie often enough, and people will beleive it, give the average man something to believe in and they often will believe in it.

No hindsight at the time for those poor souls MT. They knew that they were between a rock and a hard place. It's been romanticised as patriotism and I'm sure a lot of it was, but ask yourself: would you rush to almost certain death given the option?

Depends why, and the circumstances.
If it was something like go over a trench and face death within seconds on a completely futile mission then no, it would be gross stupidity to do so.
If it was to save lives and you had a chance of doing it, even if it meant you died - then yes, probably would.

They had a way out, they could have shot the officers quite easily and claimed they were shot by the enemy and that they tried to advance but failed.
But they didnt, probably because under those circumstances it is hard to think clearly, also you have considerable (imagined or real) peer pressure, along with massive amounts of brainwashing from propaganda and military training (not that they will have had much training in many cases).

They knew they were going to die regardless. Why anyone would want to put a slur on the bravery of the fighting Tommy is beyond me.

I would like to think that someone, somewhere in the military would have had the balls to stand up to the generals, the balls to whistleblow to the media (and someone in the media with the balls to ignore censorship).
But they all just let people die needlessly.
All because a few rich morons like to play soldiers.
 
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IIRC there were mutinies breaking out towards the end of the war but its hard to find a lot of truth as the details were always hushed up.

Also my history teacher used to drink with a WW1 veteran. He said they always knew when they'd be going over the top cos they'd get a mug full of grog beforehand. So many of the soldiers would be half cut - Dutch courage.
 
IIRC there were mutinies breaking out towards the end of the war but its hard to find a lot of truth as the details were always hushed up.

Also my history teacher used to drink with a WW1 veteran. He said they always knew when they'd be going over the top cos they'd get a mug full of grog beforehand. So many of the soldiers would be half cut - Dutch courage.

History is always written by the victors.
This country should hang its head in shame with the amount of censorship that goes on, its getting worse too.
 
I doubt they thought of them as men, more like chess pieces or cattle/cannon fodder.
Disposable and replaceable items that they can push around on a map.
Rich idiots, ordering slightly less rich idiots to order less rich idiots to order men to their deaths (at gun point if need be).
If they survived, they would get limited medical help for physical problems but be left to rot mentally, if not shot for cowardice if they went mental whilst still in service.

lots of mistakes were made, particularly persisting with tactics that did not suit the men or the battlefield but...

in the british army 12% of all enlisted men were killed but 17% of all officers were killed. 1000 old etonions died which was 20% of those who joined from that school.
also more than 200 british generals were killed, wounded or captured.
 
lots of mistakes were made, particularly persisting with tactics that did not suit the men or the battlefield but...

in the british army 12% of all enlisted men were killed but 17% of all officers were killed. 1000 old etonions died which was 20% of those who joined from that school.
also more than 200 british generals were killed, wounded or captured.
Those figures would mean more if they had the amounts of each shown.
12 percent of enlisted men will be countless (hundreds of thousands probably ) mor ethan 17 percent of officers.
1000 old entonians, or 20 percent of those who died from that school - what percentage was that of the overall deaths?
What percentage of kids died from standard schools? Odds are a heck of a lot more than 20 percent died from most other schools.
200 generals - hardly even registers when you consider how many died.
 
Those figures would mean more if they had the amounts of each shown.
12 percent of enlisted men will be countless (hundreds of thousands probably ) mor ethan 17 percent of officers.
1000 old entonians, or 20 percent of those who died from that school - what percentage was that of the overall deaths?
What percentage of kids died from standard schools? Odds are a heck of a lot more than 20 percent died from most other schools.
200 generals - hardly even registers when you consider how many died.

200 plus generals is an enormous number in any army, it's a staggering statistic and it belies the common misconception that all top brass sat in chateaus well behind the lines sending men to slaughter, many were at the front daily. though the military colleges that haig et al attended prior to the war did say that you should devise tactics but allow your men on the ground to carry them out and that's exactly what those from general headquarters did.
clearly many, many more enlisted men died compared to officers hence why the percentage is a relevant figure. for example an infantry officer at the front would be in charge of a platoon or troop of 30 men. the fact that a larger percentage of those officers died doesn't suit your argument is not my fault. britain lost a total of 700000 men in ww1 of the 6 million that enlisted. 2.2 million were wounded (some more than once)

many pals regiments were made up from towns and schools, some suffered horrendous casualties, especially at the somme. the facts and figures are out there all you need to do is research them and you'll find the answers. 20% of old etonians over the whole war is a very, very large figure and of course the vast majority of those would have been in the 17% of officers that died.

i was an enlisted man myself i have no axe to grind.
 
Here is part of the belligerence I was referring too. Too much pomposity and pig headedness amongst all of the powers. So much greed and lust for power, influence and colonies. Britain wanted to remain to top power, Germany wanted a piece of what Britain had, France was smarting over 1870 and its loss of Alscace Lorraine, Austo Hungarian Empire was losing its influence and was desperately clinging on, the Balkans was an absolute powder keg and Russia had its own agenda. It was a toxic and lethal mix and combined with the alliances dragged everyone into a desperate war.

All of the powers were to blame to a certain extent although none could at that time see what was going to happen.

Once the ball had started rolling, no one would stop it. No one wanted to lose face and be damned with the millions of casualties. Nothing to do with Blackadder, everything to do with politicians and their belligerence.



It doesn`t alter the fact that it was the stubbornness on all sides that was a partial cause of the war and caused it to drag on for 4 years. Asquith`s son`s death does not change that in any way. Maybe if diplomatic channels had been explored more thoroughly maybe, just maybe a war could have been avoided but then again maybe not as it seems as though too many parties actually wanted a war.

Germany didn't want diplomacy, they had been arming themselves to the teeth for the previous 50 years, especially the last ten. Von Moltke's opinion was they needed a war ASAP before Russia could modernise their army following the Japanese and Balkan war debacles.

Google the Septemberprogramm, imperial Germany had aggressive territorial ambitions, both in Europe and the colonies. Their whole mobilisation strategy was based on aggression ie attacking France through a neutral third party.
 
Sorry mate to tell you this and spoil your misconception. If they hadn't "advanced for King and Country" their own commanders would have shot them for cowardice. :(:(:evil::evil:

Edit: I see on reading the rest of the thread that this has been already said, but needs to be hammered home.

I mentioned it mate.

They knew they were going to die regardless. Why anyone would want to put a slur on the bravery of the fighting Tommy is beyond me.

They aren't disrespecting the men who volunteered or were conscripted. If you have a million people in every society you'll have a collection of heroes, villains, scum, but the vast vast majority will be relatively 'normal'. If you and me were placed in a trench and told to kill people then there's a chance that you may like doing it and I might want to pick poppies and swap chocolates with Germans. The vast vast majority just did their 'duty' and seemed to have got on with it and just wanted to survive. But like @Scimmy said there'd be a junior officer/NCOs in the trench behind you who wouldn't let you turn around if you didn't fancy charging at a swarm of bullets.

Nobody has labelled these blokes as cowards but I'm assuming most of them were as scared as shite but had to charge anyway.
 
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....
Nobody has labelled these blokes as cowards but I'm assuming most of them were as scared as shite but had to charge anyway.

Too late to edit but I shouldn't have used the term 'scared as shite' but my point was they must have known that they'd probably die and would inwardly have been afraid. No insult intended, it'd difficult to explain my point.
 
The Beaumont Hammel Newfoundland Memorial Park is well worth a visit as is the museum at Peronne which is one of the best I`ve ever been too for WWI.
Broke me up when I visited that museum and read the story of a fourteen year old orphan who lied about his age and enlisted so he could send his pay to support his sisters. He was one of the survivors although badly wounded.
 
Too late to edit but I shouldn't have used the term 'scared as shite' but my point was they must have known that they'd probably die and would inwardly have been afraid. No insult intended, it'd difficult to explain my point.
I know I just think it's unfair for some people to claim they only did what they did because they'd get shot anyway. It still took a remarkable amount of nerve and courage to go over the top regardless of the punishment for refusing to carry out orders. Let's not forget there was the passion and commitment to their country and the men they served with.

Plus with it being a war of attrition there's no way the army would have executed 100,000 refusals during the Battle of Somme. At the very worst they'd have just set a few examples.
 
Cheers lads, I was going to say that it might be best to stick to details of the battle itself but the people involved are often just as interesting.

My great grandad volunteered into the RAMC (Medical Corps) as a stretcher bearer - he and his mates thought that it'd be a better option than working at the colliery ...

We have a photo of soon after they enlisted and another during WWI and their expressions have totally changed.
 
Cheers lads, I was going to say that it might be best to stick to details of the battle itself but the people involved are often just as interesting.

My great grandad volunteered into the RAMC (Medical Corps) as a stretcher bearer - he and his mates thought that it'd be a better option than working at the colliery ...

We have a photo of soon after they enlisted and another during WWI and their expressions have totally changed.
Can you post it?
 
Cheers lads, I was going to say that it might be best to stick to details of the battle itself but the people involved are often just as interesting.

My great grandad volunteered into the RAMC (Medical Corps) as a stretcher bearer - he and his mates thought that it'd be a better option than working at the colliery ...

We have a photo of soon after they enlisted and another during WWI and their expressions have totally changed.

It should be noted that a large number of men enlisted, regardless of their patriotism and possible peer pressure, simply in the hope of three square meals a day, and warm clothing and good boots. In those days many of the "common men" existed in conditions of great privation and want.

Naturally also, there will have been a spirit of adventure and the optimism that it will all be over quick. And, at the risk of sounding facetious, the opportunity to see parts of the world that are more than 12 miles from one's front door.
 
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