What if the Old Testament / Qur'an / Torah actually got it right?

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HerdnMulhall said:
loads and loads I . Best I read was by a sociologist ,a scion of the Pitt Rivers family . Giles Tremlett is good for modern Spain.
But Beevor is the touchstone.
Cheers for responding and I may not have fully understood the trajectory of your post.
I perceive that I see the damage Franco did to this beautiful country on almost a daily basis. Sometimes the Civil Guardia acting like latter day thugs, a system of Government that is paralysing and perhaps I am going off thread but you , or maybe my response to your post was sincere.
Walk around Malaga and you can still see the damage the Franco invasion caused, walk around villages near where I live which were bombed out of existence by the Condor Legion.
There is a book 'Those that took to the Mountains' probably only available in Spanish that relates what happened in Cantabria to ordinary people which is soul destroying to read.
Here in this village, where I am privileged to live, when the Franco forces took over anyone from a humble background who could read was summarily shot. One kiddie was 19.
War - what is it good for?
No religion that is punitive can be justified in this day and age.
I respect anyone who has sincere religious belief as long as they respect my right to disbelieve.
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Which village are you in mate ? PM me if you don't want it public.
 
JonMc said:
Context.

Quoted at the Battle of Badr. Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more...;)
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Even in context it's vile.

OK, here's some more :-

A fire "whose fuel is men and stones" awaits them (2:24).

"God's curse be upon the infidels!" (2:89).

"They have incurred God's most inexorable wrath. An ignominious punishment awaits [them]" (2:90).

"God is the enemy of the unbelievers" (2:98).

"The unbelievers among the People of the Book [Christians and Jews], and the pagans, resent that any blessing should have been sent down to you from your Lord" (2:105).

"[We] shall let them live awhile, and then shall drag them to the scourge of the Fire. Evil shall be their fate" (2:126).

I've hundreds more if you want them......All out of context mind you considering it's the religion of peace we're discussing here ;)

Is anyone really surprised that some of the followers of this religion indulge in practices we see today when these are the texts which govern every second of their lives ?
 
I once worked with a Muslim guy who was one of the most kind and thoughtful men I have ever met.
He was also utterly devout.
Of a total liberal stance.

And I am not sufficiently informed to understand how one of the Worlds most populous religion has changed into what it is commonly perceived as of now.

Which is a vicious, backward, ill intentioned and morally bankrupt bunch of .... I will stop now before I get banned.

But what was it?
The oppression of Palestine, the destabilising of regimes , the West ( USA USA) letting loose the dogs of war, ill educated, intellectually dirt poor Mullahs, or marginalised immigrants coming into Europe and creating an alternative but ill founded reality, or possibly the Wassabi ((sp|) interpretation of the Koran ( incidentally paid for by Saudi money).
What was the game changer ?
Can anyone enlighten me?
 
Narraback said:
A fire "whose fuel is men and stones" awaits them (2:24).
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Well the first one seems to be about hypocrisy and those who claim to believe in Allah but really just want to further their own cause. Seems like he's describing IS. I'll have a go at the rest tomorrow...later today .
 
JonMc said:
Well the first one seems to be about hypocrisy and those who claim to believe in Allah but really just want to further their own cause. Seems like he's describing IS. I'll have a go at the rest tomorrow...later today .
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When you're done I'll give you a few more, actually there's hundreds more.

While you're on, how can wishing someone eternal pain 'in a fire whose fuel is men and stones' be taken out of context in what is supposed a religion of peace ? Couldn't they just forgive them ?
 
Narraback said:
When you're done I'll give you a few more, actually there's hundreds more.

While you're on, how can wishing someone eternal pain 'in a fire whose fuel is men and stones' be taken out of context in what is supposed a religion of peace ? Couldn't they just forgive them ?
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No different from all the Abrahamic religions really...and if there is a next life id hope that Allah would be a tad miffed with these barnpots.
 
HerdnMulhall said:
loads and loads I . Best I read was by a sociologist ,a scion of the Pitt Rivers family . Giles Tremlett is good for modern Spain.
But Beevor is the touchstone.
Cheers for responding and I may not have fully understood the trajectory of your post.
I perceive that I see the damage Franco did to this beautiful country on almost a daily basis. Sometimes the Civil Guardia acting like latter day thugs, a system of Government that is paralysing and perhaps I am going off thread but you , or maybe my response to your post was sincere.
Walk around Malaga and you can still see the damage the Franco invasion caused, walk around villages near where I live which were bombed out of existence by the Condor Legion.
There is a book 'Those that took to the Mountains' probably only available in Spanish that relates what happened in Cantabria to ordinary people which is soul destroying to read.
Here in this village, where I am privileged to live, when the Franco forces took over anyone from a humble background who could read was summarily shot. One kiddie was 19.
War - what is it good for?
No religion that is punitive can be justified in this day and age.
I respect anyone who has sincere religious belief as long as they respect my right to disbelieve.
Click to expand...

Cheers mate. I'll be hitting the library in due course. :D
 
Flared Hicks said:
And we, the supposedly enlightened ones, are actually are the misguided fools?

There's plenty on here and in the "real world" whose immediate reaction to hearing of crimes such as rape, paedophilia, murder, beheadings and the like is to spout the "hang 'em high" mantra. Or to beat to a pulp anyone who killed or tortured a family pet.

If that is the natural base human instinctive reaction, then what makes it right to suppress such a basal instinct? Mebbes it's the liberal, supposedly evolved or civilised approach which is actually at fault, allowing people to think they can literally get away with murder.

Is it time to reintroduce a stricter regime of accountability for transgressing the acceptable norms of society and to bring back the birch, and even execution?

As a for example, what do the SMB think should happen to the Lee Rigby beheaders, or the lad who allegedly killed that Foley bloke out in the IS regions?
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I can't think of it in a logical way now because those that do these terrible things are not thinking logically. They are brainwashed and beyond help. It's not a cause any more just blatant psychopathy. When you get to that point it's hard to feel anything but despair.
 
Flared Hicks said:
And we, the supposedly enlightened ones, are actually are the misguided fools?

There's plenty on here and in the "real world" whose immediate reaction to hearing of crimes such as rape, paedophilia, murder, beheadings and the like is to spout the "hang 'em high" mantra. Or to beat to a pulp anyone who killed or tortured a family pet.

If that is the natural base human instinctive reaction, then what makes it right to suppress such a basal instinct? Mebbes it's the liberal, supposedly evolved or civilised approach which is actually at fault, allowing people to think they can literally get away with murder.

Is it time to reintroduce a stricter regime of accountability for transgressing the acceptable norms of society and to bring back the birch, and even execution?

As a for example, what do the SMB think should happen to the Lee Rigby beheaders, or the lad who allegedly killed that Foley bloke out in the IS regions?
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I think the slavery and organised rape mandated by the bible might be a hard sell
 
Flared Hicks said:
And we, the supposedly enlightened ones, are actually are the misguided fools?

There's plenty on here and in the "real world" whose immediate reaction to hearing of crimes such as rape, paedophilia, murder, beheadings and the like is to spout the "hang 'em high" mantra. Or to beat to a pulp anyone who killed or tortured a family pet.

If that is the natural base human instinctive reaction, then what makes it right to suppress such a basal instinct? Mebbes it's the liberal, supposedly evolved or civilised approach which is actually at fault, allowing people to think they can literally get away with murder.

Is it time to reintroduce a stricter regime of accountability for transgressing the acceptable norms of society and to bring back the birch, and even execution?

As a for example, what do the SMB think should happen to the Lee Rigby beheaders, or the lad who allegedly killed that Foley bloke out in the IS regions?
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People who act so far outside the civilities afforded to him or her in today's society, should not be afforded the same benefits of justice and morality afforded to those who may have broken a law or transgressed but society believes has the ability to rehabilitate.

How can a judge or jury or solicitor, who walks down a street in the comfortable knowledge that being randomly chopped up is not normal, feel any civilized rights are to be bestowed upon the killers of Lee Rigby?

El Matador said:
Which village are you in mate ? PM me if you don't want it public.
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which village are you at? in case I fancy a pint in the next year or so :)
 
Kieran said:
I can't think of it in a logical way now because those that do these terrible things are not thinking logically. They are brainwashed and beyond help. It's not a cause any more just blatant psychopathy. When you get to that point it's hard to feel anything but despair.
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As Hume commented.....

"Take any action allow'd to be vicious: Wilful murder, for instance. Examine it in all lights, and see if you can find that matter of fact, or real existence, which you call vice. In which-ever way you take it, you find only certain passions, motives, volitions and thoughts. There is no other matter of fact in the case. The vice entirely escapes you, as long as you consider the object. You never can find it, till you turn your reflexion into your own breast, and find a sentiment of disapprobation, which arises in you, towards this action. Here is a matter of fact; but 'tis the object of feeling, not of reason. It lies in yourself, not in the object. So that when you pronounce any action or character to be vicious, you mean nothing, but that from the constitution of your nature you have a feeling or sentiment of blame from the contemplation of it."

"Tis not contrary to reason to prefer the destruction of the whole world to the scratching of my finger."

I tend to agree with him. What they are short of has nowt much to do with either reason or logic. At least that what I take from the above.
 
---Nemo--- said:
As Hume commented.....

"Take any action allow'd to be vicious: Wilful murder, for instance. Examine it in all lights, and see if you can find that matter of fact, or real existence, which you call vice. In which-ever way you take it, you find only certain passions, motives, volitions and thoughts. There is no other matter of fact in the case. The vice entirely escapes you, as long as you consider the object. You never can find it, till you turn your reflexion into your own breast, and find a sentiment of disapprobation, which arises in you, towards this action. Here is a matter of fact; but 'tis the object of feeling, not of reason. It lies in yourself, not in the object. So that when you pronounce any action or character to be vicious, you mean nothing, but that from the constitution of your nature you have a feeling or sentiment of blame from the contemplation of it."

"Tis not contrary to reason to prefer the destruction of the whole world to the scratching of my finger."

I tend to agree with him. What they are short of has nowt much to do with either reason or logic. At least that what I take from the above.
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Which book have you taken that from, I would like to read more?
 
El Matador said:
I'm not back there until next year. :(
When i'm back there you'll be welcome for a cerveza though.

It's a canny way to come for a pint from Houston mind ! :eek:
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I've decided on me visits back to blighty to stop at a different country for a few days to make more of it. This year Ireland, next year Germany or Spain, so it could happen :)
 
Dinnah, but unless Flicky is prepared to have breakfast with me in me home town then I proclaim Jarrahad on him. Religion, as ever, is the biggest f***ing con in this. Those at the top will be getting rich and using people. And all in the name of something stupid, whatever the religion is. People will die, and money will change hands. The biggest shame will be, if our own go.
 
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